Nut, Bump in the night or dog's raising cane at O'dark-thirty has me grabbing my Benelli M1 with 3" copper-plated lead BB's! Common ranges up here in my end of Minnesota has 325 yards as being long. 223rem with a 60 grain V-MAX out of a 16" barrel has any vermin totally in range!
Been there and have used and witnessed M16A1/A2(20")and CAR-15(10") on three different tours from 1983-1991 on real world targets.
I have other AR's, but I recently bought an M4 for a number of reasons. Yes, I'm an armchair commando, but I also do use my M4 in 3-Gun tactical matches and in LE training situations. I've put about 3500 rounds through this rifle since it was purchased in March, so it's not just a wall-hanger.
I believe the M4 makes a good home/truck-defense long arm. I have taken enough training and seen enough ugly stuff to know that in any sort of armed encounter I would much rather have a long gun than a pistol. Thus, a shoulder-mounted weapon has been my bedside companion for many years (kept along with eye-pro and electronic muffs... long arms of any kind are PAINFULLY loud when fired indoors). I used to keep a shotgun for that purpose, but have been persuaded over the past couple of years that an M4 is a better choice because:
1. It's lighter, shorter and handier in the tight confines of a house than a shotgun (or fullsize AR, for that matter).
2. Its 30-round detachable box magazine provides 3 to 6 times the firepower of a shotgun. This means I can engage 5 to 6 threats with multiple rounds before executing a tac-reload vs 2 to 3 engagements with as shotgun.
3. A tac reload with an M4 takes about 2-3 seconds. A tac reload with a shotgun takes a lot longer than that, depending on how many shells you need to recharge into the gun.
4. It recoils less than a shotgun, which allows for faster follow-up shots.
5. Being a rifle, it affords extremely precise shot placement at ranges from 1 foot to 200 yards.
6. The antipersonnel effectiveness of good softpoint 5.56mm ammo is equipotent to most types of tactical shotgun ammo at short range, and superior to shotgun ammo (except slugs) at ranges past 40 yards.
7. Overpenetration by softpoint 5.56mm ammo is less of a concern than by slugs or even 00 buckshot.
Last edited by DocRocket; 06/10/07.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Doc, I've been shooting a Colt AR-15 16" carbine with collapsable stock for better than 20years. I concur totally with your idea's for using a carbine over a shotgun except at night when my livestock is raising cane and my targets can go from 3 kilo's up to 300 kilo's at ranges never over 40 feet! At night my wife has her sweet-16 with a Holo-sight and 30-round magazine filled with 60 grain V-MAX on her side of the bed.
The whole idea of 14.5" barrels for general purchase is ludicrise. Most general public will buy the 16" as so to avoid the whole NFA "short barreled rifle" crap with the M4's 14.5". The 11.5" with the 5.5" flashider is a joke. Mike
If I was hunting big varmints at night and at close range I would prefer a 12 gauge shotgun with #4 buckshot but that's my personal preference. The little bullets don't inspire much confidence in the troops from what I have heard. You don't require a lot of fragile expensive optical sights with a smoothbore either. Maybe I am being to pragmatic? During daylight hours and/or longer ranges please pass the M14 thank you very much. .223 is a good prairie dog round but leaves a little to be desired on hostile insurgents I feel. YMMV whelennut
You are being ENTIRELY too pragmatic. Stop it! You trying to make the gun industry grind to a halt?? :-)
A shotgun is a fine weapon...
Ironically, my M4 replaced my M1a Bush rifle as my go-to gun. I still have the M1a, but it's in second position in the safe. It's just too much gun. For my needs, in the jungles of western Oregon, the M4 is much better.
If i lived in an area where I could see a long ways, or an area with bears around, I'd have "more gun" as my go-to weapon. But my M4 has replaced my M1a, and it wasn't something I did lightly-I'm a big M1a fan myself.
Whelen, I hear the same thing from the average troop. BUT what I hear from the guys that can shoot, the rifle, fed with 77 bthp, is a potent weapon to 300M easily. I suspect it has to do with both,.... accuracy and a better bullet.
Doesn't mean its as tough as the M14 though.
Jeff
PS around the house the bed has a 590 by it. Birdshot the first 2-3, followed by #4 buck. Side saddle has slugs just in case. For outdoor vermin there is the snake pistol and shot, and the other rifle, the AR, loaded with either 85 tsx or 75 bthp depending on the caliber I have handy. The 75 has seen most use on vermin and dumps yotes etc out to 300 pretty hard.
Last edited by rost495; 06/10/07.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
I had a job taking orders for a catalog store once and talked to some infantry people that were stationed "over there". They told me that they would rather have a Turkish Mauser in 8mm than an M16. Penetration is better for when you are fighting in a city. Heavy bullets bust through cover better. It seems to me that tons of automatic rifle fire is wasted without ever striking the intended target. It is a morale booster I guess. I still prefer to depend on 1 1/4 oz of lead every time I jerk the trigger. At close range it is devastating. Always has been! If I was in the Army now I would get ahold of a Remington 10 gauge for Guard Duty. 3 1/2 inch buckshot loads would send them to the promised land pronto!
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
People's needs are different, though. If I were in Iraq and could carry what I wanted, I'd be carrying my M1a Bush rifle, hands down. With 150-gn Partitions. But I'm not. So an M4 is a pretty good alternative.
Truth is, everything has tradeoffs or else we'd all carry a .600 Nitro Express. On balance, with hardened targets and bears out of the equation, the .223 is acceptable. To me. I'd like to have the same exact rifle somehow shooting to .308 ballistics but that's not possible in terms of weight, recoil, muzzle blast, etc.
For a light, accurate, reliable, low-recoil carbine that will kill animals up to 200 lbs or so effectively, the M4 is a pretty amazing little device! With 60 grain Partitions, like mine is loaded with, you will be shooting a hole through a LOT of meat.
1. It's lighter, shorter and handier in the tight confines of a house than a shotgun (or fullsize AR, for that matter).
Try an 870 witness protection type shotgun, or an Ithaca 37 with a "Bearstopper" grip.
2. Its 30-round detachable box magazine provides 3 to 6 times the firepower of a shotgun. This means I can engage 5 to 6 threats with multiple rounds before executing a tac-reload vs 2 to 3 engagements with as shotgun.
I fire one round of #4 buck and have 27 pellets in the air every time I pull the trigger, you do the math. I can engage multiple threats with one round of ammo if they are standing in close proximity to each other.
3. A tac reload with an M4 takes about 2-3 seconds. A tac reload with a shotgun takes a lot longer than that, depending on how many shells you need to recharge into the gun.
I can reload the magazine in between shots and still keep the chamber loaded and ready.
4. It recoils less than a shotgun, which allows for faster follow-up shots.
You won't need to many follow up shots when you put 27 pellets into the air every time you pull the trigger.
5. Being a rifle, it affords extremely precise shot placement at ranges from 1 foot to 200 yards.
#4 buck gives acceptable hit probability out to 100 yds without the need for extreme precision. 200 yard self defence shooting is extremely rare for civilians.
6. The antipersonnel effectiveness of good softpoint 5.56mm ammo is equipotent to most types of tactical shotgun ammo at short range, and superior to shotgun ammo (except slugs) at ranges past 40 yards.
Not many people have survived a close range charge of buckshot that I am aware of.
7. Overpenetration by softpoint 5.56mm ammo is less of a concern than by slugs or even 00 buckshot.
That is why I suggest #4 buckshot!
People have recognized the value of a shotgun ever since World War one doughboys used the Winchester 97 for clearing trenches. We are good at re-inventing the wheel. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
Shotguns are great tools... so are M4 carbines... I have both and both are ready to go, though in my case I grab the M4 first. Put it this way, if two guys of equal ability are in a fight with each other, and one has a shotgun and the other an M4, I wouldn't want to be either one of them! Those are both some pretty serious armament...
So having paid homage to the the shotgun, let me say that while #4 buck will put the hurt on a feller at closer ranges, it's important to note the size of the pellet and the energy it will be carrying as the range increases. Before too long, each of those pellets is below .22 RF specs if I remember right. So yeah, you are going to get a hit on the bad guy at longer ranges like 60-100 yards but that hit is not going to be the same as a hit from a .223 with a soft point bullet, which is devastating... just a thought.
Every one should buy whatever they want. I have no problem with that. It just seems AR's are bought these days for the "cool" factor.
Not throwing rocks, just curious.
Lewis
If I had the coin to be an "AR Junkie" I own all the different sizes and shapes that I could dream up. Since I don't, I went for the maximum cool factor I could get in one carbine------the Colt 6920 (the semi-auto M4). It's no secret that the upcoming election will likely mean we're stuck playing with what we've got once the music stops, and since the last Ban was based on "looks evil", I wanted to own as much "evil" as I could, while I could. I don't have the expertise to back it up, but I've read over and over that the Colt is built of tougher mil-spec and tested parts. It looks cool, shoots well (so far) and I'm very glad I own it. But honestly, it will mostly be a Safe Queen.
My second AR that I intend to drive hard and often is a RRA Middy. I wanted a flat top reciever for mounting glass, a decent factory trigger and an accurate barrel. I ordered the stainless barrel with a Wylde chamber(a little snugger than milspec---maybe more accurate), an aluminum free floating handguard (should help with accuracy too) but STILL went with a 16" barrel with a birdcage flash suppressor, and a collapsible stock. Both of the last two features are still make the "evil" list, but are also handy IMO. The flash hider protects the target crown if the gun rides muzzle down in a pickup, and the collapsible stock is handier to store, to move in/out of a vehicle, and to customize to the shooter's length of pull if both my wife and I share the same gun (we're kinda different sizes ). Since my RRA comes from the factory that way, I should be able to tinker around with a similar format after a ban if I want, and can always add a longer barrel and fixed stock later if I choose.
I'm not claiming to know much of anything, but these are the conclusions I came to after a few hundred hours of worry-------FWIW.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. --Winston Churchill
One of the other eye openers for me on the AR round was shooting 69 bthps rapid fire at 300M or a bit over maybe. I had to foul a barrel for testing and popped off 5 real quick. This is not a lee24 scientific test but had an old side by side ref/freezer in the junk pile at the farm. Circa about 1968 or so IIRC. Not new. Dinged them into one side. Went on and shot for about an hour and drove to the fridge later to see the fragmentation pattern of the hps. Got there and to my utter disbelief all 5 went in and out. One through a corner on top of it. So thats not light penetration for a HP. A 77 carries more mass and inertia to it...
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
As for overpenetration, bullet selection has a lot to do with it. Google up "the box of truth", a while back he did a test on such and the results may surprise you...even the shotgun went through 6 sheets of wall board. I don't know which bullet you tried but as stated in Sierras book their #1380 69 gr HPBT Matchking is not recommended for hunting, they're not designed to open up. Most heavy for caliber bulets do penetrate well anyway. Try the same test with a ballistic tip or a V-max of 50-55 grains at higher speeds and the results should be different.
This is a good thread. I was just issued an M-4 today, actually a USAF GUU5P, and it is handy.
The Instructor said the stepped part of the barrel is a good place for the bi pod? Haven't tried it yet.
If I read you right you mean put a bipod on the M203 cut out on the barrel.
I would guess that the bi pod is to assist in longer range fire. A bi pod on the Bbl. when in use will apply pressure to the barrel causing a change in the point of impact. The longer the distance the greater the effect of the POI witch kind of defeats the use of the bi pod. you can get a cheep adapter to hook the bipod to the forearm of the M4 if that is what you want. The M4 was not designed with long range in mind.
WOW is all I can say. Don't want him as an instructor.... and dont' need a bipod for 300-400 yard engagements. Thats sling range easy.... especially since human targets are so generous in size.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Having wanted an AR for some time - I finally saw the one I wanted a couple years ago and bought it on the spot. A Bushmaster.
The primary reason I bought it was that it was a carbine (16 1/2" birdcage) with a telebuttstock and removable carry handle. Since then I've come to know this type as an M4/A3 style. The reason I didn't hesitate to buy it was that it did NOT have the nade launcher cut out. So I guess it is considered an Hbar. The little bayonet lug was a non-issue - no charging woodchucks where I live.
Why have one? I hunt varmints and coyotes and do a lot of walking. It is light, compact and accurate. The 16 versus 20" issue didn't bother me in the least. I've chronied a lot of guns in various barrel lengths - not an issue.
Versatility? With the carry handle - I am confident (with enough tries) I can hit about as far as I can see with cheap HP's. With the DoubleStar riser/mount/ring set-up and a good scope even further with handloads (and POI is repeatable). The issue trigger is a bear on small targets at long range and I will correct that shortly with a drop in.
I find the birdcage flash hider entirely useful - for protecting the muzzle crown.
Would not want to be without this gun. I've owned a number of Mini's in the past and I never felt that way about a single one. And I do like the Mini for what it is.
My new love is the Bushie Predator. A gun that is ready to rock right out of the box.
With the upcoming election my priorities will be acquiring a Predator and then as many stripped lowers as prudent.
Ya know after I raised all that sand about the useless M4 profile Bbl
I was messing around in the safe and found my AR-10
Yup. it has the M203 cut out.On a gun that the M203 would never fit on and was never designed for. Yup hypocrite. In my defense I bought it three years back it was the only AR 10 in the shop and I didn't notice the Bbl.
You know, I'm still unclear exactly what an "M4" is. Even after a seminar and shoot with a Bushmaster rep, my idea of M4 is short barrel and telestock.
I know there are details such as nade launch cutout, bayonet lug, pre-ban config etc. ad-nauseum, but to me it always meant short barrel and telestock.
If any more knowledgeable types out there would care to enlighten, please go at it.
M4, as I am sure you know is the .mil designation for the latest M 16 configuration. Yes short Bbl. and collapsible stock are part of it. If you don't have a Government procured rifle with a 14.5" Bbl and full auto capability then you don't have an M4.
The gun manufacturers are marketing look alike, more or less, and calling them M4. You could call short Bbl collapsing stock Ar-15's M4, XM177, or Colt commandos, and they would be the same gun. Depending on if you use the current name, the 20 year old name or the 30 year old name. The flat top or removable "carry handle/rear sight" being the major difference.
My original point was, if I had one, that people were buying the"M4" with the 14.5" Bbl and a long flash hider to make the fed legal 16" instead of buying the full 16" Bbl and using it all.
). Since my RRA comes from the factory that way, I should be able to tinker around with a similar format after a ban if I want, and can always add a longer barrel and fixed stock later if I choose.