Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting why do all the new guys think your rifle needs 500yrds range

Well first off let me say I haven't been hunting long enough to make a judgment on anyone, rather just interested in other opinions.

That being said, you have compared apples to oranges there, which isn't what I was doing.

I would assume (maybe wrong) that anyone who could take a high percentage shot at 800 yards would be taking even a higher percentage shot from 400 yards. Isn't the ethical thing to put the animal down as efficiently as possible given the situation; to minimize the suffering to the elk, to take the highest percentage shot possible given the situation?

Comparing a good 800 yard shooter to a lousy 200 yard shooter is not what I was referring to. Regarding the lousy 200 yard shooter (which category I would probably fall), knowing I'm not that good of a shot, if given the opportunity, I would try to close to 100 yards, but I would do that if I was a great 200 yard shooter if I felt I could do so.

Not knowing the sport as well as probably 90% on this board, I would still think little things could go wrong at 800 yds twice as often as at 400 yards. I guess my main goal would to not have to watch an elk run off gut shot so that I could impress myself with a shot I made longer for pure challenge to myself or others.

I have to repeat, not judging anyone, just looking to learn other views on ethics.

I just read your post a second time..my mistake I thought you were making an old argument. Sneaking to within 50 yards and spooking the game is what I think you meant on the re-read. I was thinking more of the 800 yard shooter moving into a closer range they felt they could without spooking the animal. 400 yds is still pretty good odds you could do so without being detected...but I do get your point.

Barkoff

The point I see thats not gonna have a clear answer is when is close enough close enough? Sure 400 is more sure than 800, but if you are that minority of folks that 800 is an easy shot(and it can be) then whats the need of getting closer.

I think the end result, at least in my simple mind, is that as long as you are over 100% sure of the shot, and it makes you happy, take it. Bad things can happen from only feet away to over 1000 yards away.... Personally I know that I"ve made worse shots up close than far away, not that it means anything, my worst was hitting a vine that was unseen, and exploding a bullet before it got to the heart, ended up breaking the leg of the deer... and never finding it, though we trailed for many an hour till nothing was left to trail-- I don't think it died, but 70 yards is such a chip shot that when he ran, and ran, and ran, and ran, I was extremely surprised....

I do see you use the word challenge.... sure, isn't that the bottom line of why we all hunt? Regardless of with bow, knife, pistol, shotgun, MZ, rifle etc...... I don't see that challenge is a negative term like you've tried to make it. If the hunt isn't a challenge, I"ll walk away from it(well except for those meat gathering culling operations when its Feb and time for sausage making....)


Jeff

Jeff

"Who's the more ethical hunter? The hunter that CAN make the shot at 800 yards and, un-hurriedly, does so successfully or the guy that sneaked within fifty yards and had to make a quick, less well-aimed shot that ended not so well and led to a long tracking job"

personally ID rather not hunt with or condone anyone that thinks 800 yards is a reasonable range for (hunting ELK), while the guy may or may not have the skill or equipment the ethics of even making the attempt at that range from the field possitions and under typical conditions makes me think the guys not hunting as much, trying to show off and brag about result IF he makes it,(and probably he won,t bother to check if he fails to see instant results) and since Ive shot with enought of the better shooters in competition ,and know several very well respected long range shooters,and I know the odds are shot placements neither consistant or predictable, anyone who can consistantly , judge range, wind and drop, hold and declination angles, and keep shots at 800 yards under a .5-.75 minute of angle required for fast consistant kills at those ranges under comonly found field conditions ,belongs on the olyimpic rifle team


get your shorts in a twisted bunch if you must,and your free to disagree, but my experiance shows the number of guys who can consistanly do that 800 yard shot is far higher on the internet or on truck tail gates than at the range or in the field,and Id bet the number of guys that can snap shoot a 6" target at 50 yards far outnumbers the amount that can place an aimed shot of similar accuracy at 800 yards on the first attempt ,do you really think anyones 16 times as accurate at 800 yards as they are at 50 yards even given the time and setup and conditions of time of flight, drop, windage, mirriage, ETC.? differances,that are far more difficult to anticipate at 800 vs 50 yards,and ID bet theres more ("TRACKING", as the results of an 800 yard attempt than a 50 yard snap shot in most cases) Ive shot with marine snipers, and the better swat guys and I know whats really expected and whats usually seen at the range and in the field vs whats printed on web sites.
DEAD ELK from 50-80 yard SNAP SHOTS in the timber are comon in our camp, guys shoot at and occasionally hit ,ground squirrles and prairie dogs at 600-800 yards because minimal hits don,t waste a fine game animal

First let me say I am not referring to anyone here on this forum.

I use to work with a guy who told us all at lunch on more than one occasion about his 30-06, and how it would out shoot any '06 he ever heard of and about the deer he killed at 800 yards aiming "right at it". and how that gun would shoot so far with no drop. True story, so one guys 800 is apparently not the same as others.

About 800 yard shooters there are two schools of them IMO.

School number one is the fella who just lights em up from any range and figures elk are so big he just can't miss. Your basic slob cares little for the animal etc. I've also found this type of shooter to be lurking in the dark timber taking running "raking" shots at fleeing elk. Both people are in the same slob school IMO.

Then there is school #2 who is practiced in the art of shooting at range. They are gonna do very very well.

Now 800 is a bit far for most but a select practiced few. But 500 is a whole nother matter, it doesn't take much to coach one how to go about taking out elk with one round consistently at 500. And many time in a manner that is a lot cleaner of a kill than some one with their sneaky peets on in the timber.

Lastly, I do agree with the idea of I am very skeptical of people who say they can do elk at 800.

I would be remiss if I didn't say that I am skeptical as to how many people can actually get up on elk in the "black timber". IMO most of the people how talk about this or that is the perfect round for taking elk as they go away in the timber are totally full of horse apples!

The elk that I've taken in the "black timber" were not on the flee and not facing away. When the conditions are right and I hit the "black timber" I go into what I call Predator mode and if all works out I will get a clean kill. This is pretty darn tough stuff to do.

Bottom line is I know I could coach one to become able to take out elk at 500 with one round a whole lot easier than I could coach them how to do it in the "black timber".

Just rambling here waiting for October...grins

Dober

Sorry, but you'll find that swat shooters and marine snipers generally are not at the top of the bunch. Good shots yes. Top, no. Takes more work than that to be at the top.

I think I'm probably in the rare bunch that is well above most everyone in capability, I hate to say that because I always think that if I can put the dedication into it to become successful, then anyone should be able to.

I also agree with Mark, 500 yards is much easier than 800. But if you get a low wind, say 5mph or less and prone at 800, well lets just say that a 12 inch plate would be a gimme everytime.

Anyway no panties in a wad here. I think that I've said it and I'll say it again, as long as you are over 100% sure of the shot then pull the trigger, if its running thats fine(I won't because I am not a good moving target shooter) and if its 50 yards or 500, I'm fine. Its all about knowing your capability. And who gives a damn whether you call it shooting, hunting, bragging or whatever you deem to belittle it to, if you can do it, then its fine with me, but you have to be 150% confident.

Finding them after you shoot them? Even at longer ranges? Not a problem... you just have to pay attention and use your head. Map out a plan, and you can go right to the spot they were standing and trail them( you really are not dumb enough to believe what you printed about folks not going to see if they didnt' fall over on the spot-- I totally agree with you that it happpens, but if you think its only on long shots I've got some property for sale>..)

Everything is basically all the same, just have to know your limits, and so that I don't want to put my limits on you, I simply ask that you don't put yours on me. Simple enough?

Personally my suggestion is that no one shoot past 200 yards, and not past 50 yards without a good rest, from what I've seen teaching new shooters....

BTW would you not show off and brag about your 50 yard timber shot elk? Same as my long shot animal? One is no different than the other, simply a different side.

Jeff

Reading the various argum..., uh, debating points on both sides in the constant discussion over long range shooting of animals, it seems that straw men are the easiest targets to hit.

I earlier mentioned that I shot a moose in the guts. I didn't aim there I was aiming at the point just above and behind the front leg. He was broadside(Heart/lung area). I was leaning on a tree and had a good steady bead on him and just as I pulled the trigger he started moving and guess where the bullet hit. This is on a aprox 400 yard shot. So even if you can hit a plate at 400 yards it doesn't mean your going to be sucessful with your shot. You don't know if the animal will move by the time the bullet strikes and this is not a linear factor since the farther the target is away the longer the bullet takes to get there. This point hasn't been brought up and I figured I should because I really felt bad about that shot and subsequent chasing of the moose ended up with my buddy being runover and beat up by this same moose and he could have lost his life over my stupidity. I shouldn't have shot because it didn't know we were there and we could have walked in for a closer shot. Judge me fairly but also do the same to yourselves. Have a good day.

If Shooting an elk at 800 yrds is what you want to due then fine, But to me it would be like phone sex, you get the job done but the best part is missing!
The part were you stalk the game.If I had to kill an elk that bad I would quit Hunting. There is nothing there just shooting it mite as well be a rock or a paper target.
An elk nose is not as good at 800 as it is a 50 or 100 yrds.

I hope after 30 years of elk hunting that I'm not a new guy and I wish I knew to keep track of all the elk I'd kill before the enternet.

I could not agree more.I really find it funny how the internet has it's cowboys yet experience like Rays,falls on deaf ears cuzz we iz invinsable on the net,right..Why I can shoot the ears off a fly at 1,000 yards regardless of the terrain or unseen winds.

My experiences in 50+ years of hunting Elk and working 24/7 in Elk country in the backcountry of Idaho, mimmick what Ray said.

Thump thy chest but in reality,how many times can you repeat it under field conditions.

Owe,just my opinion,again and what would ray know about Elk hunting?

Jayco

Some might confuse hunting vs sniping...Great game animals deserve to be hunted not sniped at...

.....I gotta remember that one...

Casey

Too many hunters look at wildlife as animated targets as it is...........

Casey

Are we talking about game that is taken at long range vs closer? And or are we talking about game taken over feeders vs no feeders? And or are we talking about no fence or low fence vs high fence? And or are we talking about game that is hunted on foot vs game that is taken via being run by one by dogs or a human drive?

Just a thunk

Dober

To each his own. I've had an occasion or two to hunt with a guy that has his own line of hunting DVDs, and if the situation were to present itself, there's no way I would begrudge him a 600 yard shot with his 300 RUM. He's put in the time at the range, carries a laser range finder, and is most capable.

Me on the other hand, have no business shooting at anything over 350 yards. Every minute I spend on the range is a minute I'd rather be in the hills scouting the critters. It's just the way I'm built. I also carry a range finder, but mines a cheapie. It's only capable out to 400 yards. If I can't get it to read the range, then I know that critter's beyond my ability to shoot, and it's time for Plan B. Plan Bs are what I live for anyway, as the closer I can get, the more the old adrenaline starts pumping...

That's what hunting is all about. Good honest post mozey and welcome to the campfire.

Has he spent the time hitting targets on level ground? or has he became proficient at various uphill and down the mountain angles too? Plenty of difference in trajectory and it's not unusual to find elk on uneven ground.
I didn't know rangefinders had become so advanced they will give you "point of impact" an any angle?\

Hmmmm,,, Lets see that animal is at a 63 degree angle at 687 yards,hmmm, where do I aim for a good clean kill?
Might be fine for a guy hunting whitetails in Kanas but it's a different world here.
Just a thought.

Points taken, but I think we differ here. Good shooting to me is a skill you must practice because you need it and I do enjoy shooting. The challenge for me would be the hunt, the ability to find game & the stalk. being able to make a good shot is a skill needed to complete the challenge. I don't think the shot should be considered the challenge, even though I may end up with a challenging shot
I know it sounds like I'm playing word games, and I do enjoy shooting, but I don't consider driving a challenge, rather a skill. I can become better at driving with practice just as shooting, but both take time and practice, nothing is living, thinking or opposing you.



Hunting will always be a challenge, and the only way I use challenge as a negative term would be if a hunter makes it more of a challenge, at the cost of a humane kill.

I will concede your point if a hunter feels 100% sure on his shot;
I guess I refer to those who are not 100% sure, but take the shot anyway instead of upping their odds when they could easily do so.

I know there are some dedicated long range shooters out there, but I took this as the title suggests, "new hunters" who I doubt would fall into that class.

"Might be fine for a guy hunting whitetails in Kanas but it's a different world here."

Uhhh, by "it's a different world here" do you mean Idaho? Yeah? Will then, I'll grant you that...

I was specifically talking about Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, and Wyoming. Although on one of the trips to Wyoming, we were probably hunting within 30 miles or so of that rarified Idaho world. How far is Afton from Idaho?

Just kidding ya. One of my old college hunting buds was from Idaho. I used to kid him too, but he could give as good as he could take. He sure had an unnatural attraction to his 30-30. That wouldn�t be you, would it?

700
The angle calculation has long been an easy and quick one to do, given distance and angle. Gadgets on the scope easily read the angle.

In fact, again what aggravates me, and we are way off the subject.... the fact that some work their butts off to shoot a longbow with homemade arrows and within 20 yards or so,but those that also work as hard or harder learning all the variables it takes to make a longer shot, well they aren't working or aren't hunting. End result is a kill. Also aggravates me is we pick on the "long range" guys bad, but what about the fact that an educated one knows more about a shot at 500 yards than is ever considered by most at 300, IE no one thinks what will or can happen at 300, they just hold high(and probably don't have too much if any...) and forget the wind and while the crosshairs are wobbling, pull the trigger...

I dont' know if I can keep from posting... but if the shot is 100% sure, what is the argument?

Jeff