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I'm intending to restart a handloading project for my .348 Winchester Model 71... after about a 35-year lay-off... so it would help to hear some comments about some of the newer powders that have become available in the meantime, and about some of the "high tech" features that weren't available back when... And I'd like to be sure this rifle is adequately loaded for all those pesky brown bears and lions and so forth that we have here in the Chesapeake region.  I've reviewed the Hodgdon site for info about their Extreme powders, IMR's Enduron powders, Winchester's StaBAL... and I expect probably Alliant, Western, etc. offer powders with some similar features. On initial review, it looks like "short cuts" is good for metering and load density, temperature stability (or insensitvity) is good, decoppering is good, environmental friendliness (whatever that means in Enduron-speak) is good... and lowered muzzle flash would be good too, although I don't see that mentioned with those three particular brands. Are there any other new and wonderful features somebody offers that I haven't included? I have on hand 5 different jacketed bullets (old pre-Interlock 200-gr Hornady FPs, new 200-gr Hornady FTXP, 200-gr Swift A-Frame, old Barnes 250-gr FPs, and 250-gr Woodleigh Weldcore) and will shortly have 2 cast/gas-checked bullets (200-gr Montana Bullet Works RNFP HT, 225-gr Rim Rock RNFP). I have some W760 and some IMR 4831 on hand, both I think because of recommendations from Ken Waters' very old Pet Loads column... so I can use those easily enough in the meantime... but I'll eventually run out of those, and I'd like to plan ahead for whatever latest and greatest powder(s) might be appropriate. My goal for this one will be consistency, accuracy, with decent load density, and reasonable velocities. I don't mind if the "best" powders turn out to be different for each of the various bullet weights/styles... although I wouldn't turn down a "one-size-fits-all" outcome. I don't care much about extracting the very last foot-per-second from any loads. (If I need more power for something, I have a "bigger" rifle.) Can folks please hum a few bars about all these various new powders, pros and (if any) cons, recommendations, etc.? I have a decent supply of load recipes, some very old, some newer (as from the Hodgdon site), so I haven't signed up for loaddata.com (yet?). Would that be worthwhile? Why? Is there some new and nifty way to predict load density with various powders... without actually buying and trying a sample of each? -Chris
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Crickets?
No one has preferences? Or non-preferences?
-Chris
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Having no experience with the .348 (seems to be a cool cartridge, though) I am hesitant to offer advice...I do have an opinion based on what QuickLOAD is telling me, though. If it was me, I'd be looking at using Re16. My guess would be that anything near it on the burn rate chart would be acceptable, but Re16 is endowed with some very desirable traits such as temperature tolerance. Just my two cents worth.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Yep, I'll second rl 16. I just took a handful of rounds and left in my pocket with a 2 handwarmers.
Let a few others soak in 2-5 below zero for 8 hours.
Alternating between them, nice little 1.5 inch groups over a snow machine seat and wearing heavy winter clothes. No clue on velocity, chronograph won't work either because of cold or low winter light.
This is a 338 rcm, 2-7 redfield. 59 grains rl 16, cci benchrest primers, 225 grain fusions.
Bet over a rest, it'd be well under inch groups.
Not everyone needs RL 16's top notch temp stability. Especially an open sighted 348 winchester. But there yah go, cutting edge formula that would work very well for yah.
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Staball 6.5, Superformance, and Leverevolution are interesting to me if they suit your SD. I can attest to Staball's flexibility (150-220 gr @ .323) and Lever's performance on high bore-to-diameter rounds (6.5 grendel, plus 6.0 arc though I don't shoot it). Superformance numbers are good on the book and has caught my eye though I haven't tried it. The old stand-by's seem good though.
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Thanks, guys, I'll check those out. From among the Endurons or the Extremes or Alliant's RL16 version of "high tech" etc... does anybody have knowledge about whether one set of "high techs" is better than any other? If I'm looking at two different (brands of) powders with pretty much the same burn rate, is there any way to choose IMR technology over Hodgdon or Alliant (and et cetera)... other than flipping a coin? Having no experience with the .348 (seems to be a cool cartridge, though) I am hesitant to offer advice...I do have an opinion based on what QuickLOAD is telling me, though. If it was me, I'd be looking at using Re16. My guess would be that anything near it on the burn rate chart would be acceptable, but Re16 is endowed with some very desirable traits such as temperature tolerance. Just my two cents worth. Does QuickLoad list no other "high tech" powder for the .348? Or is RL16 just the one with highest velocities at lowest pressures? Or best load density? Or...? -Chris
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I'll let you look over the powder profile yourself. I believe the "T" means a temperature tolerant powder, and the "C" means a decoppering agent, but I'm not positive. The latest QuickLOAD update showed up with this feature and I haven't seen an official explanation, but it seems to make sense. Please be aware that this is NOT load data...it is IMO merely a tool for comparing and selecting powder candidates. When I use this approach to powder evaluation, I look at velocity, case fill, and percentage of powder consumed...but that's just my own way of using it. Cartridge : .348 Win.
Bullet : .348, 250, Barnes OrigFNSP 30438
Useable Case Capaci: 60.257 grain H2O = 3.912 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.795 inch = 70.99 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 46412 psi, or 320 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
67 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 75%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 109.2 65.2 4.23 2410 95.4 46412 10831 1.188
Norma MRP *C 109.2 63.3 4.10 2372 92.0 46412 10348 1.193
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 97.3 56.7 3.68 2371 98.4 46412 9718 1.194
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 101.6 55.0 3.56 2344 96.8 46412 9462 1.196
Accurate 4350 101.9 56.6 3.67 2332 96.6 46412 9382 1.223
Vihtavuori N560 *C 110.0 62.4 4.05 2331 86.7 45997 9968 1.203
Norma URP *C 101.7 55.9 3.62 2327 96.4 46412 9287 1.209
Ramshot Hunter 102.0 58.5 3.79 2327 94.2 46412 9454 1.204
Vihtavuori N550 *C 98.5 55.9 3.62 2323 96.3 46412 9351 1.217
Alliant Reloder-22 *C 110.0 61.8 4.00 2320 89.7 45175 9830 1.213
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 91.7 55.5 3.60 2320 96.7 46412 9183 1.208
Hodgdon H414 96.3 56.6 3.67 2320 93.2 46412 9355 1.208
Winchester 760 96.3 56.6 3.67 2320 93.2 46412 9355 1.208
IMR 4831 107.1 56.9 3.69 2318 96.7 46412 9154 1.217
Ramshot Big Game 91.4 54.1 3.50 2309 97.7 46412 8914 1.211
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 104.5 56.2 3.64 2308 98.2 46412 8775 1.206
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 106.2 59.0 3.82 2304 90.3 46412 9340 1.204
IMR 7828 SSC 108.0 61.6 3.99 2303 86.7 46412 9584 1.199
Accurate MAGPRO 110.0 65.0 4.21 2295 83.6 44602 9783 1.223
IMR 4895 90.3 50.1 3.25 2295 98.0 46412 8847 1.229
Norma 203 old 93.8 52.7 3.41 2294 98.7 46412 8796 1.239
Hodgdon BL-C2 86.5 52.4 3.40 2294 98.8 46412 8761 1.229
Winchester 748 83.8 50.1 3.25 2291 99.4 46412 8483 1.221
IMR 3031 90.7 47.1 3.05 2289 100.0 46412 8036 1.226
Norma 203B *C 91.6 50.9 3.30 2287 97.9 46412 8755 1.230
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 91.0 50.6 3.28 2284 97.4 46412 8759 1.230
Norma 204 *C 100.5 57.7 3.74 2283 90.0 46412 9041 1.207
Ramshot Magnum 110.0 66.5 4.31 2282 89.2 46083 9440 1.204
Accurate 4064 93.3 50.7 3.29 2279 100.0 46412 8334 1.265
Accurate 2520 86.5 50.7 3.28 2275 99.8 46412 8309 1.243
Lovex D073.6 88.5 50.7 3.28 2275 99.8 46412 8309 1.243
IMR 4320 93.0 50.8 3.29 2275 97.7 46412 8475 1.211
Hodgdon H380 92.7 52.6 3.41 2275 96.0 46412 8780 1.233
Ramshot Wild Boar 86.3 51.2 3.32 2274 97.8 46412 8581 1.225
Hodgdon H4895 87.3 48.5 3.14 2271 98.4 46412 8519 1.233
Lovex S070 100.2 55.0 3.57 2267 93.5 46412 8818 1.235
Accurate 2495 87.7 47.7 3.09 2265 100.0 46412 7941 1.273
Winchester Supreme 780 105.0 61.5 3.98 2263 89.7 46412 8856 1.208
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T 110.0 59.8 3.87 2262 95.8 40572 9482 1.272
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 107.1 60.1 3.90 2260 86.6 46412 8893 1.208
IMR 4350 100.7 55.6 3.61 2259 92.2 46412 8644 1.216
Hodgdon H4350 *T 102.6 55.8 3.61 2259 92.1 46412 8651 1.216
Vihtavuori N540 *C 90.6 50.9 3.30 2257 99.9 46412 8159 1.233
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 86.2 46.3 3.00 2257 100.0 46412 7394 1.230
Lovex S062 91.8 49.6 3.21 2256 99.0 46412 8283 1.242
Accurate 3100 110.0 61.1 3.96 2256 93.2 42959 9052 1.263
Vihtavuori N150 *C 100.5 52.7 3.41 2254 99.2 46412 8197 1.231
Hodgdon H335 79.4 48.1 3.12 2253 99.9 46412 7996 1.230
Norma 202 *C 88.1 48.2 3.12 2252 99.9 46412 7998 1.237
Lovex S065 98.5 53.5 3.47 2251 94.9 46412 8567 1.238
Vihtavuori N530 *C 84.2 47.0 3.05 2251 99.0 46412 8185 1.231
Hodgdon VARGET *T 93.0 50.0 3.24 2249 97.2 46412 8343 1.223
Winchester WXR 110.0 60.4 3.92 2246 87.7 41274 9474 1.267
IMR 4064 93.7 49.1 3.18 2244 97.4 46412 8227 1.228
Hodgdon H322 83.8 45.2 2.93 2244 100.0 46412 7707 1.228
Norma 201 *C 88.7 48.2 3.12 2243 98.9 46412 8197 1.249
IMR 8208 XBR 85.9 47.7 3.09 2243 98.9 46412 8086 1.231
Vihtavuori N135 *C 96.5 48.6 3.15 2242 100.0 46412 7541 1.240
Ramshot TAC *C 85.8 51.4 3.33 2241 95.2 46412 8406 1.231
Accurate 2460 82.3 49.2 3.19 2240 99.4 46412 8022 1.254
Lovex D073.5 82.6 49.2 3.19 2240 99.4 46412 8022 1.254
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 107.5 58.1 3.76 2240 87.6 46412 8617 1.216
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 95.1 52.2 3.38 2236 92.9 46412 8415 1.224
IMR 4007 SSC 93.9 52.9 3.43 2235 92.3 46412 8476 1.236
Vihtavuori N140 *C 94.8 50.6 3.28 2234 99.1 46412 7946 1.231
Accurate 2230 82.2 49.4 3.20 2232 98.5 46412 8027 1.245
Lovex D073.4 81.1 48.3 3.13 2230 99.4 46412 7882 1.250
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 83.4 49.4 3.20 2228 97.7 46412 8084 1.236
Hodgdon H4831 *T 110.0 59.4 3.85 2227 85.8 44448 8742 1.232
Alliant Reloder-12 83.8 47.4 3.07 2222 100.0 46412 7533 1.234
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 93.8 49.9 3.23 2211 93.2 46412 8113 1.233
Lovex S060 87.3 47.2 3.06 2208 97.9 46412 7811 1.234
Vihtavuori N165 *C 110.0 60.4 3.92 2208 89.5 42698 8586 1.257
Hodgdon Benchmark 84.6 46.3 3.00 2208 99.3 46412 7670 1.237
Vihtavuori N160 *C 110.0 58.6 3.80 2208 87.5 44562 8380 1.238
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 81.0 42.5 2.75 2205 100.0 46412 7154 1.252
Accurate 2200 77.1 43.5 2.82 2202 99.7 46412 7473 1.235
Accurate 2015 83.8 44.5 2.88 2201 100.0 46412 7153 1.258
IMR 7828 110.0 59.4 3.85 2199 83.9 40779 9071 1.275
Accurate 2700 93.9 54.4 3.53 2195 91.9 46412 7977 1.242
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Very useful, thanks very much!
Those sound like good assumptions, given that the Endurons are marked as both C* and T* and the Hodgdon Extremes are only marked with T*.
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 12/12/20.
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RR, I decided QL looks useful enough that I need my own copy... so I ordered it. I'll be able to set my own parameters (bbl length, etc.) and it should make it easier to choose powders that might work with the several bullets I want to try... and ideally most of those will be in the QL database. Thanks for the insight.
Cheers, -Chris
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Cool. I think you'll get a lot more out of it than you expect. When I first began using it I found myself playing with a lot of "what if" scenarios that opened my eyes to a lot of things. The first few months I had it I would start playing around with it early in the evening and get so engrossed that I would look up and see that I had been at it for hours and ended up hitting the hay later than usual.
If you don't have a chronograph, I would strongly urge you to get one. Sometimes the QL-predicted velocities per charge do not line up, so I've adopted the practice of correlating observed velocities to the predicted corresponding pressures in an effort to stay out of trouble (so far, so good). I also compare QL results to published data when it's available. If you've not used a chronograph in the past, I think you'll wonder how you got a along without one once you've used it for a while.
There's a learning curve for sure, and there are features and options I've never even made use of. I think you'll be glad you bought it. Some guys aren't so interested in what's down this rabbit hole, but for us who ARE interested it can be extremely interesting and even rewarding.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Thanks. I do have a chrono, only been shot up once by a "guest shooter" IIRC, and it kept working after that.... but now I do all the shooting over it.
QL looks pretty decent, at least in the overview. I remember I reviewed a couple of ballistic software packages somewhere back around 1994-ish for a very early on-line outdoors-focused e-magazine.... somebody's (Frenchu?) Ballistic 4.0, and maybe the Sierra3 route (if that is indeed a ballistics thing). And I think I remember using or at least reviewing Load From A Disk way back when too...
But then I've been off doing other shooting sports (in the meantime handloading primarily on those, mostly about quantity) and altogether different hobbies since then, so lost track of what's out there.
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 12/13/20.
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QuickLoad finally arrived today. And a few minutes quick (!) work shows more about why the RL-16 recommendations -- from among the newer temp insensitive, de-coppering powders. That holds true for all three jacketed 200s and and the two jacketed 250s, too. That, at least, is hurdle one, I think. Next step might be to find some vetted loads; the .348 isn't on the Alliant website... and I think all of the .348 loading articles I have pre-date the introduction of RL-16. I've got a fair amount of W760 leftover from my first foray into this one, mostly based on Ken Water's Pet Loads suggested data... and it's still obviously very relevant -- so I can use some of that for a few experiments while I shop for some RL-16. The other top candidates in order of gradually lower velocities: VV N555, IMR Enduron 4955, and RL-23... ditto pretty much in that order across the board. I don't see StaBALL or LeveRevolution anywhere.... but maybe those were weeded out due to initial load density calcs... or maybe those aren't in the current QL database (yet?). I haven't learned enough about hot to work QL to consider the two cast/gas-checked bullets (200 Montana Bullet Works using RCBS 57911, and the 225 Rim Rock, dunno what mould). I do know these are candidates for lighter loads, and I generally know how to do that already anyway... but I haven't yet worked how how to actually get QL to tell me powders for light loads. Given I only installed it about 30 minds ago... not to worry, I might even resort to the manual. Thanks for your suggestions, all. -Chris
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Analysis continues. After understanding why several suggested RL-16 based on QL recommendations... I did some "working backwards" from Hodgdon's on-line load data...
And I notice QL does NOT suggest -- in their top level powder selection table -- H4350, IMR 4451, Varget, or StaBALL 6.5... all of which are also temp stable. Of those, still working backwards, QL calculates Hodgdon's H4350 and 4451 loads are either over or near max and often are compressed... so not including those in the powder selection table seems to have a reason.
OTOH, both Varget and StaBALL do seem viable, after comparing Hodgdon's loads with QL follow-thru predictions. I dont know enough about it to guess why QL didn't surface those powders in the initial table. Anyway, given no RL-17 or RL-16 data available for most bullets (Swift says they have RL-17 and their 200-gr A Frame in the same sentence), I can see experimenting with either Varget or StaBALL when (if) I get around to trying some temp stable powders. (Esteban mentioned StaBALL above, too.)
I'm still focusing on W760 loads -- which compare very favorably, in the grand scheme of things -- since I've got some, but haven't gotten to the range yet to shoot up the first small experimental batch.
-Chris
Last edited by Ranger4444; 01/12/21.
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