Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need help deciding on Long Range Rifle

Of course I am. I'm not talking about copper bullets that blow off their front petals and wadcutter through--that is acceptable to me. Maybe not my first choice for long range (Texas Heart Shots aren�t something I�m going to try at long range), but acceptable.

I'm talking about one turned to a sharp point (which is what you need to get a competitive BC from a solid copper bullet) like a FMJ that will often not deform at all on its way through. It's very possible, even likely depending upon the circumstances for these bullets to punch through while doing very, very little damage, as Jeff has experienced. If I shoot a deer with a 50 BMG it ought not be running away! This is why I find these bullets unacceptable for terminal performance.

The various HP ones are OK with me for terminal performance, but their low BC's keep them from being the best choice for 1000 yd shots IMHO.

Oh don't worry, I'm not remotely close to feeling picked upon.

I disagree. There�s a lot of marketing BS full of misleading and just plain incorrect information.

I don�t have a very high opinion of Gerard�s used-car salesman tactics of purposely misinforming people so his bullets are viewed in a better light. I�ll give him credit for taking the listed BC�s off his site but there is no excuse for continuing to preach all over the internet that Sectional Density doesn�t exist, is a myth, has nothing significant to do with BC�s, etc. It has been explained to him very plainly for years by many people but he either isn�t capable of understanding or chooses not to.

�Not understanding� a very, very, simple mathematical relationship so he can claim one does not exist has gotten really, really old after all these years.

But it�s in his financial interest to �educate� people that Sectional Density is a Myth and has nothing meaningful to do with BC�s so that they�ll believe his low SD bullets can have really high BC�s when there�s no reason in all the world of ballistics that they should. All those nifty �downrange momentum� and wind drift charts on his site are based upon his old advertised BCs that are nowhere near reality.

I tested his cream of the crop in 30 Cal, the 173 and it scored the second lowest BC of any bullet I�ve ever tested.

Now don�t get me wrong, they are very nice bullets. Very well made, accurate and I�m sure they penetrate just as far as advertised. I think they�d make a very nice flat shooting load for general, more �normal range� hunting even including some long shots. BC is not everything.

But at 1000 yards, it�s pretty close. The farther you go the more important it becomes. At 1000 yds and farther you�re way beyond �flat shooting� meaning a damn thing. If I want to make a first round hit at that distance, the last thing in the world I�m going to do is choose a bullet that will drift two or three times as much in the wind. And the fact it�ll be going much slower when it gets there won�t help its killing power a bit. End to end penetration potential is meaningless to me in this circumstance. If it can punch through a shoulder, that�s plenty and you don�t need a solid copper bullet to do that, especially at these sort of ranges.

I know you didn�t completely swallow Gerard�s stuff hook, line and sinker as your advertised BCs were much more realistic. For that I commend you. I�m sure your bullets, such as the 127 you mention were fine bullets that performed exactly as you say.

All I�m saying is for ranges like 1000 yds (which is way beyond what most even here will do), suggesting a bullet of that type is leading people down the wrong path. They�d be much better off with a 180 Berger, 200 Wildcat, etc. Resistance to wind drift, having enough velocity to actually do some damage when it gets there is much more important than ultimate penetration potential in this application IMHO.

Flight time would be well over a full second & wind drift in a STEADY 10 mph crosswind for a 250 gr. .338 fmj/bt at about 2850 fps is going to be somewhere around 55-56 inches. The difference in trajectory between 900 & 1000 is about 50 inches. Sniping at an enemy combatant is one thing. Hunting for Elk another IMO...I just hope you guys all have good horses & only hunt when there's snow on the ground.

I know that you do not total understand long range hunting,because you mention drop in inches instead of Miuntes Of Angle...I do not care how many inches a bullet dropsI am only interested in how many Minutes Of Angle I need for correction in drop as well as MOA...
In your example with a 338 250 grain SMK with a BC of .587 at 2850 fps will need a correction at 1K ( asumeing a 225 yard zero and 700 feet of elevation and 10 MPH 90 degree cross wind))will need a drop correction of 22.75 MOA and a wind correction of 4.75 MOA... the drop in inches is 237.3 inches and the drop correction at 950 yards is 206.8 inches as you can see in this example the difference is 30.5 inches....I know that your example is based on sea level,but most of my hunting is at higher elevations..A quality targeting soft ware ballistics computer based program is a must in my opion....

My longest kill thus far is 777 yards a one shot kill in a 10 MPH wind and no we did not need horses or snow as the Antelope DRT.............
You can read about it with pictures and witness accounts here



It'a called knowing how to acomplise your intended goal and practicing until you have total confidence,a hell of a concept......try it sometime.....

Time of flight, I shoot at undisturbed animals at longer distances....

I also shoot some slow rounds up around 200 yards, such that I shoot, recoil and come back on target as the round strikes. Buffalo hunters used to do very similar but much longer ranges. Its in knowing your animal... IE I run a much higher chance of a screw up at an alerted animal up close than a relaxed one at distance, just common sense there. You pick a grazing or resting animal, generally they take note of a happening by picking their head up, they will not generally instantly flee because they need to identify both danger, and a safe escape route.
OTOH you take elk like I found last fall, they had already spotted us before I heard them, they went a short distance and stopped to stare, at under 100 yards that was a shot I would take, but was actually much more dangerous than a long shot.
Just recently I had a offhand snap shot at alerted game about 120 yards away, I had only seconds and a small opening.... I pulled the trigger but evidently as I did the animal started to move out. Even with a fast 338/378 the bullet was about 10 inches back of where it should be.... It can happen anywhere. As an example the opposite way my current long kill is 802 slope distance, and it took minutes to make the shot, caribou was grazing and I was waiting for broadside, which came, a good lung hit, he moved around at the hit and stood to stare and so I hit him a second time. Time of flight? Don't know but it was only a 338 WM with 225s at about 2750. But the animal was unaware and time of flight would not have really mattered.

I will give you that 4-6 seconds TOF becomes interesting simply with the wind but I've shot enough TOF of that with a 50 at long distances to say that its still workable under a set of conditions.

Its a shame some folks just don't want to research and have no experience at things before they claim its not workable.

I've done a fair amount of long range shooting...Yes PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE...Knowing your rifle & load...Laminated cards showing exact trajectory in 10 yd. increments once the ballistics dictate. Also the number of clicks needed at any specific range past your zero...NO, NOT off ballistics charts...The REAL LIFE trajectory of your rifle & load combo...More than anything I was & have been responding to the original post...Quote: I disagree with him on shooting at the ranges at which he has collected game but to him rifle hunting is more about getting meat for his family....his real hunting is archery....Hmmm...Now correct me if I'm wrong (AGAIN) but this does not appear to me to be a dedicated long range shooter who is going to spend the time & money required to become proficient at putting a killing shot on an elk at 1000 yds. It just appears to me that there will be the lack of dedication required...

If you are refering to roust495,then you are mistaken,Jeff is an acomplished Long Range competitive shooter as well as Long Range Hunter...He also enjoys bow hunting.....and has successfuly taken game out to 800 yards or so....

No I was refering to the original post by BooDude who was asking about long range rifles for a "FRIEND"...While in the shower a few minutes ago I got to thinking about all the time & money I've spent over the years working up accurate hunting loads for all the rifles I've owned...I could probably retire...If BooDudes friend doesn't handload he needs to start...What really has me shaking my head is thinking this guy is gonna go out & buy a 300 RUM, 3X9 scope, factory ammo & start taking pot shots at animals 1000 yds. off. Maybe I just read or interpreted the original post wrong...TT

TT,
None of us would support unprepared/irresponsible hunting. It angers me when someone assumes if they purchase X-Brand gun, scope, etc., they are qualified/ready to hunt at longer ranges.

NOpe you won't find one ounce of support for long shots if the effort is not put in prior.

What does piss us off is someone saying its not ethical or can't be done...

Jeff

BTW...jwp475...The pic you posted of the Lapua with the Nightforce....SWEEET looking Rig....

Thanks,.........

I guess I need to add more info for Thomas. My friend Norm has lived in or near the woods his entire 50+ years. Mostly a logger, but really a jack of all trades. The reason he works where I work is because we get about 4 weeks of time off per year that he uses for hunting. He has hunted deer and elk every year that it was legal (usually in more than 1 state in a season), loads his own ammo, shoots varmints every spring, and competes in archery every summer and fall. His hunting has been all over Oregon and Idaho, especially high in the mountains. I respect his experience and his confidence in what he can do with his 7mm mag. He and I were just discussing that there is an area that he hunts that he has not been able to ambush the bulls. He can catch them resting or feeding at fairly long range and even though he is very willing to stalk them he has not been able to get to them before they move on. I disagree with him on the ranges he wants to shoot, but that is because I have not practiced beyond 300 yards. I do know that he will not take a shot without a spotter, having ranged the target, and under the right conditions. My request for help was to help him have the best tools available if he gets the chance to shoot next year in that area. Basically I feel that it would be unethical for me to take that shot, but with how much Norm practices my main concern is only that there is still enough killing power when he hits his target. He is also from a family of long time hunters, his mom took a buck with a .270 at a lasered 600 yards last year. As to his dedication, well after we priced the guns he said that only a high end Leopold or something similar would do, so he is willing to put a couple thousand dollars and a lot of his time into this project.

You guys know better than me.

But I do have a buddy who bought a M700 XCR in .338 UM and ended up having to sell it. Really bummed him out because it was a very accurate rifle. He found it to be too much to handle from hunting positions. The scope was tagging him, and he tried multiple things to mitigate it but it was just too much recoil. This is a guy who has sold more guns than most of us will ever own, including a couple .375's, 7 STW's, multiple .338's and 300 magnums, etc. Anyway, I would qualify the above statement by adding, "the rifle needs to have more weight to it than a standard sporter or recoil may very well be an "issue" for many shooters"...

... and I may be wrong. :-)

-jeff

How about just add a brake,rather than making the gun too heavy to be practical and just use good ear protection.....

Also in my experience with a brake on the end of a 30" barrel they are no worse in the noise department than an unbroke 26" barrel....

A good brake really does help a lot.
A solid bottomed brake would be great if you are shooting prone.

Holland's or Defensive edge are the two I use, but I have more of Holland's.

My buddy didn't want to put a brake on it. I don't remember why. He's pretty sensitive about his hearing, that might be it.

-jeff

A brake on a long range rig is nothing to worry about. If you don't have time to put earmuffs on, you don't have time to do the calculations to make the shot at long range.

I always tote earmuffs with my long range gun and have never had an issue with getting them on before the shot

The "having time" thing makes a lot of sense in a long-range context. It's why my turrets don't bug me, even though they take a scootch longer than a reticle. That said, when a scope needed buying, I just bought one with a LR reticle...

Anyway, my bud Tom was buying it as a general-purpose rifle, not just for long distance stuff. So a brake wasn't going to work for him.

-jeff

I don't like brakes either. I just mount the scope far enough forward it can't get me. Problem solved.

Just to be clear, I didn't say or imply that BC wasn't important. I never used a solid pointed bullet on any animal, that I am aware of. Geometrically a bullet made from solid copper can be made with as high or higher BC as any lead filled bullet - hollow point (expanding type) bullet. All one has to do it make a separate plastic or metal tip. As most already know, most of the time, using a solid copper bullet of the same weight as the lead filled bullet one needs a faster twist.

Gerards concept is 100% spot on. His bullet perform great. As to accuracy, he and I can agree to disagree on that one,
I didn't imply or say his bullets should be used at 1000 yards. As to his posted BC's - if they were off it really didn't matter much to me. I ALWAYS shoot at paper at ALL the various distances I plan to hunt. That way I know what MY rifle will do with a certain bullet.

Wind is a variable that doesn't come into play to much for any ethical hunter, whether killing a deer at 100 yards or 1000 yards. At 100 yards most hunters ignore the wind. At 1000 yards most ethical hunter shoot a few practice rounds at something "Near" the animal, so wind doesn't really matter that much.

Therefor, BC doesn't really matter that much because it can all be calculated in. One "Lobs" in a little higher then the other. Who really cares. As long as the animal dies in a short period of time - that is what matters - to me.

I will continue to use turned bullets made from solid copper because they outperform lead filled bullets over a wider use.

Don