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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Scatterguns rule around the homestead for many reasons. #4/5/6 shot....are you ready to rock? What would those reasons be? Rick doesn’t have enough bandwidth for me to list them. Some folks know what a scattergun can do and others will never have a clue. I agree with Dan. A shotgun is very lethal, and a home invasion would be one where distance is very close. A scattergun with the right loads would put any pos to rest.. Even birdshot or 7 1/2 shot intended for clay pigeons would prove deadly as fugg.. Blue doesn't know half of what he pretends to.. You should shoot one from a bench and report your findings.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,484 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 18,484 Likes: 2 |
A shotgun will certainly stop the threat if the situation is favorable to a trained shooter. Few folks could move effectively through a structure w/ multiple doorways and T intersections w/ out training and practice. Adding a long gun to the problem increases the degree of difficulty. Only the lightest of shotgun pellets will not penetrate 1 or more walls. Can you make a headshot on a scrote holding a hostage in front of them at 15 yards w/ your choice of loads. For many people weapon retention in in an entangled engagement is more probable w/ a handgun.
Move your fight to the outdoors and learn the difficulty of running that shotgun from the prone and the joy of 5-7 rounds in your gun w/ slow reloads. Aimed fire vs. point shooting is no longer even a subject of rational debate. Much has been learned since 9/11 and the the average civilian can take a well run FoF class and prove for themselves what works for them.
No tool replaces a determined mindset which leads to focused training and deliberate, constant practice.
YMMV
mike r But bad guys piss themselves and hightail it out of Dodge at the sound of a shotgun racking.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,195
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,195 |
In my bedroom is a 16” AR loaded with 77 gr SMK’s, an Aimpoint red dot ready to go, a Benelli 21” M1 Super 90 loaded with #4 buck, an M&P45 with a light loaded with 230 gr HST and a G19 loaded with 124 Gold dots, also has a light.
The two occasions I’ve had to grab a gun and search out the “noise” I’ve grabbed my 45. If I was going to stay in my bedroom and make a stand I’d grab the AR.
I’ve known of 2 shootings with a shotgun, one from a front yard to the porch, the other across a kitchen table. Both birdshot and both very fatal. But you pick the best tool for the job.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,260 Likes: 35
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,260 Likes: 35 |
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,517 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,517 Likes: 1 |
Dan certainly made his point. This is my 20 Gauge, No. 3 Buck, “personal home greeter” for hostile man or beast: Contrary to myth, a shotgun pattern does not spread sufficiently to allow for careless aim, even from a “sawed-off.” The spare magazine is loaded with No. 4 Bird Shot, for a quick change-out. Maybe they should be reversed. In my bedroom is a 16” AR loaded with 77 gr SMK’s, an Aimpoint red dot ready to go, a Benelli 21” M1 Super 90 loaded with #4 buck, an M&P45 with a light loaded with 230 gr HST and a G19 loaded with 124 Gold dots, also has a light.
The two occasions I’ve had to grab a gun and search out the “noise” I’ve grabbed my 45. If I was going to stay in my bedroom and make a stand I’d grab the AR.
I’ve known of 2 shootings with a shotgun, one from a front yard to the porch, the other across a kitchen table. Both birdshot and both very fatal. But you pick the best tool for the job. As with TRW, other assets are kept available, at the ready. TRW’s choice of shot size shows considerable thought. In a 12 Gauge, No. 4 Buck is preferable to 00 for this use, in my view.
Every day’s an adventure.
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,517 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,517 Likes: 1 |
Every day’s an adventure.
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 113
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 113 |
Handgun ,shotgun as a backup.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,836 Likes: 28
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,836 Likes: 28 |
It is illegal to shoot somebody. If there is anyway you can escape, that is the correct thing to do or you will go to jail. There are plenty of places where there is no legal duty to retreat from a confrontation. My home state being one of them. Same here. IF you in the house, you a problem.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,721
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,721 |
Benelli Nova Tactical with strobe attached. S&W M&P 9mm in bed holster. Wife has a Ruger LCR w/38+P loaded.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,703 Likes: 12
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,703 Likes: 12 |
Scatterguns rule around the homestead for many reasons. #4/5/6 shot....are you ready to rock? What would those reasons be? Rick doesn’t have enough bandwidth for me to list them. Some folks know what a scattergun can do and others will never have a clue. I agree with Dan. A shotgun is very lethal, and a home invasion would be one where distance is very close. A scattergun with the right loads would put any pos to rest.. Even birdshot or 7 1/2 shot intended for clay pigeons would prove deadly as fugg.. Blue doesn't know half of what he pretends to.. As far as damaging your target goes, a shotgun is amazing at close range; say house distance. When I was a teen my friends and I were a threat to seek out inanimate targets if the doves weren’t flying or the squirrels weren’t showing. I can tell you a certain Sweet Sixteen, modified choke, and 6, 7 1/2, or 8 shot will cut down a 4” pine sapling at a surprising distance. At 20’ or so I don’t think a man would walk away with any torso shot. YMMV
“When Tyranny becomes Law, Rebellion becomes Duty”
Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version) "And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,264
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,264 |
Keep a fn 509 tactical 9mm at bedside as well as a 11.5” 556 with dead air sandman s with Holosun red dot. 55g vmax in a surefire 60 round mag. 24+1 and 60+1
Where I come from being in someone else’s house is more than enough intent to get you smoked legally and on the spot. No DA would bat a eye at it either.
No obligation to retreat. Castle doctrine
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,231 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,231 Likes: 10 |
A shotgun will certainly stop the threat if the situation is favorable to a trained shooter. Few folks could move effectively through a structure w/ multiple doorways and T intersections w/ out training and practice. Adding a long gun to the problem increases the degree of difficulty. Only the lightest of shotgun pellets will not penetrate 1 or more walls. Can you make a headshot on a scrote holding a hostage in front of them at 15 yards w/ your choice of loads. For many people weapon retention in in an entangled engagement is more probable w/ a handgun.
Move your fight to the outdoors and learn the difficulty of running that shotgun from the prone and the joy of 5-7 rounds in your gun w/ slow reloads. Aimed fire vs. point shooting is no longer even a subject of rational debate. Much has been learned since 9/11 and the the average civilian can take a well run FoF class and prove for themselves what works for them.
No tool replaces a determined mindset which leads to focused training and deliberate, constant practice.
YMMV
mike r But bad guys piss themselves and hightail it out of Dodge at the sound of a shotgun racking. And they don't run from the sounds of a falling AR BCG??
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,701 Likes: 5
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,701 Likes: 5 |
I leave Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns playing on the tv every night, so that intruders will recognize the four clicks of my peacemaker.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,702 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,702 Likes: 3 |
It is illegal to shoot somebody. If there is anyway you can escape, that is the correct thing to do or you will go to jail. Not so, here in America. We apply the Castle Doctrine.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,003
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,003 |
A shotgun will certainly stop the threat if the situation is favorable to a trained shooter. Few folks could move effectively through a structure w/ multiple doorways and T intersections w/ out training and practice. Adding a long gun to the problem increases the degree of difficulty. Only the lightest of shotgun pellets will not penetrate 1 or more walls. Can you make a headshot on a scrote holding a hostage in front of them at 15 yards w/ your choice of loads. For many people weapon retention in in an entangled engagement is more probable w/ a handgun.
Move your fight to the outdoors and learn the difficulty of running that shotgun from the prone and the joy of 5-7 rounds in your gun w/ slow reloads. Aimed fire vs. point shooting is no longer even a subject of rational debate. Much has been learned since 9/11 and the the average civilian can take a well run FoF class and prove for themselves what works for them.
No tool replaces a determined mindset which leads to focused training and deliberate, constant practice.
YMMV
mike r Good points but how much applied to average homeowners in their homes? We're not shooting up the neighborhood. We have no immunity and are liable for damages. Nevermind a neighbor down range. A crook would be welcome to escape with my tv, if I had one, if it meant I didn't have to patch up the walls, paint and replace siding. Shotgun tip: the edge of the pattern is effective. At short range, put the edge ob the leading half of the rabbits head to avoid ruining the part you eat.
Living in a world of G17s and 700s, wishing for P7s and 202s
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,478 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,478 Likes: 4 |
Frangible 5.56 will stop any threat in the house without shooting up the neighborhood.
Shotguns are betting on one or two intruders, who are hit amd incapacitated while you reload.
And, if the intruders have ARs or AKs, they can retreat out of your range and still fire on you with effect.
Point being, shotgun for urban? Maybe. If you live in a nice urban neighborhood where the home intruders promise to come in groups not more than two.
Rifle or carbine for suburban? Probably.
Rifle or carbine for farm and ranch? A certainty.
A gunfight must be won to worry about the next gunfight, so having a carbine in the safe downstairs and a pistol in the bedroom doesn’t make sense to me either.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,003
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,003 |
This question of capacity...how many times do we get to miss and still survive?
My practice range only has three target stands. As I said before I like the idea of a bullpup with 40gr VMax. I don't see me learning it as well as a lifetime of hunting has trained me with a shotgun.
Living in a world of G17s and 700s, wishing for P7s and 202s
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,276
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,276 |
Frangible 5.56 will stop any threat in the house without shooting up the neighborhood.
Shotguns are betting on one or two intruders, who are hit amd incapacitated while you reload.
And, if the intruders have ARs or AKs, they can retreat out of your range and still fire on you with effect.
Point being, shotgun for urban? Maybe. If you live in a nice urban neighborhood where the home intruders promise to come in groups not more than two.
Rifle or carbine for suburban? Probably.
Rifle or carbine for farm and ranch? A certainty.
A gunfight must be won to worry about the next gunfight, so having a carbine in the safe downstairs and a pistol in the bedroom doesn’t make sense to me either.
Around here, it's usually at least 3 guys with guns who kick the door in the middle of the night, which suggests having way more than 6 or 7 shots available. As far as shotguns, I watched a guy pattern a Benelli M4 a few years ago, at about 30 yards, with 00 buck. The pattern was only about 6 inches, so "scattergun" did not apply. YMMV, of course depending on gun, chokes, and loads. So you'd still have to aim it roughly as well as a rifle, under duress. More recoil & fewer shots on board. So, I keep an AR handy. One of these days I might get a bullpup shotgun perhaps a Tavor or similar, which helps the ergos.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,732 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,732 Likes: 7 |
There just isn't any well reasoned compelling argument to choose a shotgun over an AR carbine for self defense. Be it in the home, around a homestead farm/ranch or in a much bigger area outdoors the carbine wins on all fronts from 30' - 300+ yards. And I say that as a shotgun guy. I grew up with shotguns and have hunted a lot of game with shotguns and shot a good bit of clay's on the skeet and sporting clays range near me. Small game, wingshooting, turkey, deer and hogs and a heck of a lot of called coyotes, bobcats and fox. In certain predator calling circles I have a reputation as the guy who years ago started getting real serious about finding the ultimate shotgun, choke and load combinations for calling coyotes. I am about to retire from a 32 year law enforcement career that has shoved me into a few scenarios in which shotguns played an immediate role in my survival. I have seen the results of what a shotgun can do in a gunfight. I used an issue 870P to defend myself and a partner officer when ambushed by a whacked out meth head. It worked - decisively. I have investigated shootings involving shotguns, trained with, qualified with and been issued shotguns for a very long time now. I have a long interest in shotguns and currently have both a personally owned 870P pump and a Benelli M1 Tactical that I am not getting rid of for any reasons. With all that said I no longer rely on a shotgun as a primary long gun for self defense. AR carbines have taken over that role. The AR carbine checks all the boxes and just makes more sense all things equal.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,858 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,858 Likes: 10 |
“Just go out on the porch and fire two blasts into the air from your shotgun”. Seems like I heard that suggested by someone, somewhere.
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
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