Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need help deciding on Long Range Rifle

rost,
Wrong. Bullet construction is the major player in penetration. I think you missed that part of my post.

Take 2 equal weight bullets shot at the same velocity into the same media. One is lead filled and the other is of solid copper construction. The solid copper bullet will provide more penetration. Point being, one doesn't always need that heavy lead filled bullet.

Retained energy means nothing in the comparison above. Bullet construction is the factor in the above.

Don

At 1000 yds hitting where you aim is the most important thing. Much higher BC's are available in heavy lead filled bullets which gives you an advantage in the wind. I'm not worried about a bullet "blowing up" and failing to penetrate at such distances...or even 1/2 that.

"Much higher BC's are available in heavy lead filled bullets which gives you an advantage in the wind"

Wrong again.

So sad.

The subject was penetration and retained energy. Bullet construction is more important.

As to the higher BC. A solid copper bullet can be turned to a geometric shape which provides a BC as high or higher then any lead filled bullet. That arguement doesn't hold water grasshopper.

Don

Clearly, I was speaking of "available" bullets that will work for hunting (at least expand a little).

Yep, used those turned hi BC bullets before a bit.. thought I'd haev a margin of error on bad days. Could not get em to shoot in my rifles, though I suspect it had to do wiht not being set up for them.

Jeff

Your "FRIEND" doesn't sound very ethical to me...Wanting to shoot at an Elk at 1000 yds....Does he have STUPID tattooed on his forehead??? If not he should... Or maybe he's just fat & lazy??? Maybe your "FRIEND" should just take the money he would spend on this NEW RIFLE & just buy a steer...I'm kind of disappointed that I see this kind of thinking going on & even being discussed as an option for hunting. If he fires & it runs off is he willing to track it??? Will he even be able to find the EXACT spot the animal was standing when he fired? Shooting at 1000 yards at a range is one thing. You are shooting at a stationary target that is NOT going to take a step or shift its position once you squeeze the trigger...IMO This type of thinking should not be encouraged...

Some of us can, some of us can't. Those that can't always take a negative look at it all. Walking no miles in others shoes. Shows a lot of intelligence IMHO.

BTW finding the exact spot is awful easy if you have any common sense.

Jeff

JonA,

You seem to be hung up on a bullet that "expands". I shudder when I see a bullet expand (mushroom). Now, before you think otherwise I am not picking on you in any way. There are a lot of hunters, dare I say "Most" hunters don't understand the parameters of using turned bullets made from solid copper.

If you know of GS Custom bullets, I would ask you to read all the data Gerard has on his site. There is a lot of very good information to be had there.

I was interested in his concept and did a lot of digging to find out as much as I could about how a solid copper (turned) bullet works versus a lead filled bullet.

I started "Playing" with making various designs and started shooting them at paper and varmints to see what affects took place. I went through litterally hundreds of designs. Some I look back at and smile (laugh) about. I didn't use GS Customs' "Band" design because there are some issues with that design that I didn't like. I won't get into that. But, the concept of using a bullet turned from solid copper and the fact that lighter bullets can be used which provide better penetration then heavier lead filled bullets, had my interest.

Long story, short, I have been making my own bullets, out of solid copper, for over 10 years now which provide better performance then the heavier lead counterparts.

As an example: I had a buddy hunting with me in May 2004 in South Africa that used his 7mm mag and my 127gr bullets to bring down his 54" Kudu at 135 yards. One shot, broadside, is all it took to bring it down. The bullet went all the way through. When he told me he got his Kudu, in camp that night, my first question was: How big was the exit hole. There was no doubt in my mind that the bullet provided complete pass through.

The first night before our Safari started both of our guides told us 127gr bullet is way to light for most of the animals we were after. Now, you must understand, my buddy had already taken his 6 X 6 bull elk the previous year in CO with his 7mm mag, at 280 yards, broadside, Shot high in the nearside leg and broke the offside leg on the way out. One shot = dead elk. When the guides (PH's) told him that bullet was to light, he laughed and explained all the various game he has killed using those bullets. They weren't convinced and explained: You draw blood, you just bought the animal.

Long story short, my buddy killed his Kudu, Blesbuck and Impala with his 7mm mag and the 127gr bullet. Three shots, three pass throughs (broadside) and three dead animals.

Again, I don't want to make this sound like I am pointing you out - I am not. It is just that when something is "Different" a lot of people are threatened by it. Lightweight copper bullets bringing down large animals is "Different" then what most hunters are used to.

I could list many examples and most would say: BS. But they just don't know because they never tried/used the better bullet design.

Don

Thomas,

Would you call the following "Ethical"

A hunter going after deer, using his 30-30 (or whatever caliber he has), goes to the range, shoots one round at 100 yards and comes within 3" of where he was aiming. He has been using the same (20 round) box of ammo for the last 20 years. He then goes deer hunting.

That is a description of over 1/2 of the deer hunters in the USA.

OR

The guy that spends countless hours and hundreds if not thousands of rounds a year shooting at distances to 1000 - 1500 -2000 or more yards. Takes 2 or 3 sighter shots at whatever distance the animal is and makes needed adjustments prior to taking aim at the animal and killing it.

This is usually done with at least 3 people. One sighter, one guy on the rifle and one guy using a spotting scope or "Big Eyes" (2 spotting scopes assembled side by side in a frame which looks like a HUGE pair of binoculars).

After the hit, the animal can be seen and using radios directing the guys to the deer. This person uses the "Big Eyes" to guide guys to the deer.

Now I ask you: Which of the 2 above examples is more ethical???

Remember, your ethics and mine may not be the same.

Don

Don

I'll bite, so how well does a solid non expanding bullet kill? Does it require breaking bone?

I shot a doe this spring with a somewhat similar instance, except it was FMJ through the lungs from a 50 cal. No expansion of course, a great looking hole. Ran like hell, NO blood trail at all, very few hair. Finding the track the bullet took after hitting teh deer through the brush was 100 times easier than finding the deer... but we did. She bled a few ounces where she fell...
I bought 50 cal X bullets right after that. Which reminds me.... wonder what a 375ish 50 cal X pistol bullet would do out of a 50 bmg... probably not the same diameter.... But I'll do the 650ish X bullets next time...

Jeff

I would like to comment. I am a traditional lead/ copper coated bullet user, But I have been doing some research about the non lead solid copper bullets like the barnes TSX bullet. It's too late this year tofor me to work up a load but this video will give you a good idea of how the solid bullet works on an animal. I have a friend that shoots the tsx and at 300 yard out of a 7stw, a deer will spew lungs on his way down. Check out this video http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308_180gr_TSX_6fps_logo.wmv

TSX is not a solid non expanding bullet! It is HP and opens up. I have used the X series including teh new TSX for enough years I don't recall when I started, probably mid 90s.... I won't use anything else personally.

Jeff

I think that Don's bullets work exactly like the GS Custom bullets where the petals shear off.I believe that Dave7mm uses the same bullet or one very simular..I would still classify this as an expanding bullet....

I shudder when I see a bullet expand????? Vs Open up? Hard to say from the writing. If thats what Don is talking about its not clear to me, but if its basically an X of a different flavor, all is well...

I"ve shot custom turned homogenous bullets that were basically solids, High BC and not all that accurate.... forget the name its been so long ago but boxes of 20, each bullet in a foam tube...

Jeff

What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds. That's my story & I'm sticking to it...too much time passes from the time you squeeze the trigger till the bullet arrives...

What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds. That's my story & I'm sticking to it... too much time passes from the time you squeeze the trigger till the bullet arrives ... [/quote


What shows a lack of intelligence is your inability to comprehend the concept

How much time would that be,any idea??
I suppose shooting at an unaware animal and making a clean kill is not your idea of how to do things........

Thomas

Its all about the attitude of the animal.

Do you have a clue as to how much time actually passes on a shot with a good magnum?

Are you also aware that even on relatively close shot the animal could move at any micro second? Neighbor shoots, animal catches a wiff etc....whatever... I shot at a doe head once, head down feeding, she jerked her head up just as I shot, I now know that I only shoot at alert heads.....

I will say that an elk sized target at 1000 yards is not for most folks. But for those that put in the time, we like to discuss it. Of course most don't have or want to take the time that it takes to become good at this. And thats your/their decision.

Heck time of flight of a 40-50 yard bow shot that most don't argue over is admittely not in micro seconds...

I'm just sorry that folks that don't know a thing about it profess to know it all about it.

[quote=Thomas_Towns What shows a lot of intelligence is shooting at elk at 1000 yds.... [/quote]

Now coming into a Long Range Hunting Forum and talking [bleep],now that shows a lot of intellegence..........I'm impressed.........

Don,

I may be showing my ignorance here, I will admit I know very little about the concept of using monometal nonexpanding bullets on game...

In actuality, I'm sure nonexpanding bullets work just fine on hits to the vitals, but I just can't get it through my head that penetration is be-all to end-all factor in lethality.

For example, why not shoot an ultra fast .17 caliber monometal bullet? due to its smaller bearing surface, it will penetrate more than typical hunting caliber monometal bullets if pushed at the same velocity. Or for that matter, why not push a needle at 3000 fps? It'll outpenetrate anything else out there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's the overall volume of the wound channel in the vitals which correlates with efficiency of dispatching game. Penetration is very important (because if the wound channel is in the shoulder rather than in the vitals, the shot would not be immediately lethal), but it is not the single most important factor.

Sorry to take this thread so far off topic, but I'm kinda curious about the above concept