Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Vent about new long range guys

So, I work at the hunting department of the local Sportsmans Warehouse... I sell a lot of scopes, and of course a main part of sales is to ask the customer what there use will be...


well, alot of guys who dont "look" like they are able to shoot really well tell me they want to get into the long range hunting.. 500+ yards... I dont know if they know what it takes to shoot effectively shoot?!?!? Most of these guys, I try to explain the target turret deal, but they all want the Boone and Crockett, or some other BDC type of reticle... which is fine, but in my mind makes me think that they cant apprehend the math it takes to figure the turrets out, so they want to be able to range and bang with no work envolved!

sorry about the rant, and i dont mean to make any sort of debate, just wanted to vent, and see wat you guys think about this....

I agree. Nowadays with some of the gadgets (some are necessary), especially the laser rangefinding scopes, anybody thinks they can hit what they're aiming at way out there. The problem is not that the gadgets are not effective, it's just that many shooters lack the discipline to acquire the knowledge needed when using them.

One of the big problems is that many ranges don't go beyond 100 yds. so many don't have the chance to test their rigs at longer distances, and of course again many won't even care to.

I saw a post several months ago where a guy was gonna shoot at 100 yds. using all the aim points on his ballistic reticle. Once he saw that his gps. were exactly the same point above the gp he shot from his reticle's zero at the reticle's axis he figured he was set to go, and he never even shot at distance to confirm the trajectory of his load. Guys commented on the forum that he did a fine job, when all he was doing really was confirming the reticle's subtensions. Amazing how little is commonly known about this stuff, and how much misinformation there is out there.

Kinda puts you in mind of some of these guys who drive around in five-hundred horsepower cars with tricked-out suspensions. They've never been off the public highway but it sure looks cool driving around or sitting in the driveway.

any clubs around to shoot 500 yards? invite the club to offer a membership at the counter... sell it up and offer a sportsmans wharehouse day and show them what you are talking about..

hell, offer a class with a one day trial at the club.. start with a class session including the basics and then let them see how it works...

hey, i like that idea..

woofer

Heh heh, "testing" your subtension by shooting, strikes me as very humorus. Thanks for the chuckle.

Carl

Casey-no problemo about the rant, I worked the counters (of guns shops) for 3 years so we've earned the right to rant. I honestly feel that the world of gun shops would be a much better place if all gun looney's had to spend a couple of season behind the counter.

It could it would and it should make gun shops a much better place to hang out. I mean the stories I could tell, and Royce from here worked them for a lot longer than I did so he big time can tell stories.

OK to the turret thing vs the B&C and or BP or whatever.

First off, it is my opinion that 500 yds is not all that far and that shooters are way more capable of this kind of distance (with a bit of coaching) than we ever give them credit for.

I also understand the lingo and how the people sound and how you/I can tell that they didn't have much time in behind a gun. And or I/you can tell that they are pretty darn gun savy and that they're just ready to take it to another level.

I'd almost always ask what kind of LRF they're using and if they weren't into a LRF then we'd start into LRF school. And I also knew they were really behind the 8 ball. IMO anyone planning to go to any distance past 300 yds they're just fooling themselves by not going LRF.

Once thru that we'd start talking about the B&C reticle and the BP reticle and to a very small extent turrets. This country up here is basically not turrret country, and as such there isn't a lot of talk about it exceptin by target shooters.

The B&C and or BP systems are so simple stupid user friendly and so quick and so efficient that there is no reason not to be using them to 500-600 yds.

Personally I would talk them thru the LRF stuff if need be, then I would talk them thru the reticle stuff and then if need be I'd offer to meet them at the range and walk them thru it. I normally go to the range at least 1x a week to 4x's a week so it isn't very tough for me to do so.

I found that those that seriously wanted to learn they would learn. I also found that with these systems it was so simple to get people sorted out to 500. Once they understand LRF's and trigger control and how to build a nest (place on ground to rest off of) then it was about all over except for a bit of shooting.

This is really not rocket science. Now if you wish for people to use turrets by all means go for it. Personally I see no reason whatsoever to steer them that way. The B&C and or BP systems are so simple/tough and take less time to get into action and their easy enough to use that anyone especially under pressure can remember them.

Now there is gonna be the group of people that don't care and won't practice and so on. We can't change them and although I tried to give them a few things to consider I also saw thru them real quick and honestly wouldn't spend my time and or energy on them.

Good luck to you this fall, don't let them get to ya!

Dober

+1 to all.

Lefty

ehhh they dont really get to me, it just so happens that when ever i talk to anybody, they tell me they have a whitetail tag (what i hunt) and i can just imagine these people huffin and puffin from MAYBE hikin 1/2 a mile, then tryin to make a 500 yard shot... it makes me cringe! I hate to think about one of MY deer walking around with a knee blown off, or a jaw destroyed, or even worse dying from a gut shot!

When it comes down to long range, I am for it 100%. There are many times when you hunt coues deer that you cannot get closer than say 400/500 yards. Do you shoot or not? I do. If you know your gun, your scope and the range you are shooting, there is nothing wrong with taking long shots.
I have a old tasco 3-9x40 tv view world class. Have had that gun and scope set up for 15 years now. I know my gun know it capability. However I also know how to use my scope and the duplex and cross hair. No fancy turrets no BC reticle just an scope I have used for years and have shot with for years. There was a canyon by my moms house that we set up 12"x12" plates at 300, 400 and 500 yards. With a lot of practice, ammo and patience. I learned my scope and where to hold over. my main cross was 300 half way down was 400 and the tip of the duplex was 500. never failed me. I knew the yards. I like it more than i do the turrets on my 7 mag. Because I have had the gun so long. However I have learned the value of turrets. When I was at the Kaibab guiding a couple years back. My client had turrets on his gun. We had been seeing a deer come in and out of the woods everyday in the same spot. After some thinking, I got to a point and took a reading. 420 yards. That night me and my client planned to kill that deer. come morning we exited the truck and he turned his turrets to the 425 yards line and he said lets go. Sure enough like clock work The buck as soon as light came up he started moving to cover. We spotted him like always but this time two shots rang out before he got to hide and he was dead. That was the great thing with turrets. you know the pattern and you can get an easy shot.

As I see new products come out and ooo everyone, I am hesitant until I try it. I am sold on the turrets, sold on the BC Reticle. However each has its purpose and place on hunts.
I think for coues and certain areas, a BC Reticle is better than turrets, just my opinion. the distances vary in most areas and to be moving a turret as the deer move around just annoy me. however if you have a BC reticle or say premire reticle dots put in. It makes it easier to just move your gun up or down than to have to look at your turrets and adjust then everytime the buck moves. with a reticle you keep your eye on the target more. Know if you are hunting a long canyon like in unit 32 or 33, then everything I just said doesn't matter as the distances tend to not change much.

If I was you I would stress the value of practice and a rangefinder. Because without both of those. a scope with a reticle or a scope with turrets are worthless.

Just my two cents and experience. But what do I know? I have hunted with the same rifle and scope for 15 years.

Kique

Dobers comments make sense. I don't care what they buy(turrets or reticle); if they do not(cannot) shoot to distance, they are doomed to failure.

Two things I've learned in life is that a person can't buy experience and or ability.

They both have to be earned and it normally takes time and discipline and diligence to aquire both.

Dober

+1.Very true.

I think it an indication of where we are as a society. Everyone is in a hurry, nobody wants to put the work in anymore, everyone wants it handed to them. And everyone wants to be the Big Dog.

-jeff

Yep, lazy pretty well covers it in my books.... F class shooting is a partial example, historically highpower has been iron sights, then to get more involved they allowed "deer rifles with scopes" and on a bipod or rests so no sling use or jacket knowledge needed....

its good, and its bad....

Jeff

There is a tendency among many shooters that I see to get the equipment to do it; buy the technology and the shooter becomes sorta detached from the process, and they think they can still hit.Which is not true.If you don't work at shooting, you'll never be any good.

Guy at the range the other day asked me how far his 30/06 dropped at 300 yards; I asked him did he ever go to the 300 yard range to find out? he said "no"; he's been a member there about 10 years......

I agree 100%

Yeah, or more than 100% if that were possible.

I know for a fact that one of my elk-camp buddies has not fired his rifle since last year, and that's pretty common for him. To his credit, he's one hell of an outdoorsman and prefers to be out salmon fishing, sturgeon fishing, or whatever else kind of fishing every weekend, not shooting. Still, in that same year, I bet I put 400 rounds through my .338 and 600 or so through my 30-06 and another 500 or so through the .308, and a couple hundred through the 7mm-08, all to attempt to become functionally proficient out to my first goal of 400 yards, which I have extended to 500 yards due to success. Not tooting my own horn; I only barely feel like I accomplished anything- I only learned enough to see how much I CAN'T do and DON'T know, but that's major progress if you think about it!

It would not matter at all, it'd be just another blowhard thing that guys could brag about in the bars with no consequences, except that these are cognizant, living beings we are shooting here that feel pain in much the same way we do and are put together much the same way. So to gut-shoot an elk so that it dies 10 days later in misery is really, really wrong and that's the sort of thing people are risking when they ass-u-me they can shoot and start flinging lead at long distance without the practice time first.

-jeff

Jeff-what you're seeing is what a lot don't see cause they don't try.

But, mucho practice at range teaches one to know what he can do and what he can't do and the ability to know the difference in a nanno second.

Dober

That is true;gotta know your limits and forget it sometimes. Jeff's right about wanting to hit well. Practice teaches you what shots you can ake with certainty.

+100.

had one of the same guys that has been "buggin" me for the last week in last night. hes lookin at a 3.5-10 VX-7. this is the guy that bugs me the most because he comes in like he knows everything, then i have to basically school him.

i asked this guy about his rifle and all it was is a model 70 black shadow... i know, i know nothing wrong with this but to get into 500 600 yard shots? come on ya gotta step the game up a little bit! everytime, he comes in, handles the same scopes and always walks away saying "well, ill go on the internet and do some research"!

Dober,
I have been reading your posts for many moons, I dont usually post much,, just read and sift through the info that is written,, and as you know, much is not info,, just speculation and dreamers ranting,, But I just wanted to say Thanks for all the great input to this site,, as I agree to your way of thinking ,, It is eay to tell you can talk the talk cause you walk the walk,, I am a big 7mm fan, have several 7mags, an STW, 280 improved rcbs, and a 7 08,, I used to hunt in 4 states each year but have slowed a bit,, drawing tags is part ,, but I can relate to your loading and shooting experience,, makes stopping by this site very interesting,, and there are several others as well that run in your league, good stuff !!

Jeff,
There are guys in our club with bad shoulders, etc. who just can't shoot from position with a sling anymore. Then there are those of us who can't use post front sights anymore. I just shot a friends rifle set up with some nice sights on a match rifle and I could actually focus on the bull. I can't shoot service rifle anymore, but would maybe give F class a try? Just because we are getting older doesn't mean we have to give up on everything.
I am getting in shape for this years season. I am sighted in for 300 yards and might get in a fist fight with my know it all brother in law who thinks nobody should shoot that far.
Maybe because he has a 30 dollar 4X scope and never practices?
I put a stand on the other side of a big field and hope to shoot one right in front of his stand about 300 yards out just to chap his lips. I would like to buy him for what he knows, and sell him for what he thinks he knows.
whelennut

I get the feeling this describes many in the "anti-LR" crowd.

IMHO there are a lot of WANNA BE long range shooters out there, but they do not want to practice. Practice is what it takes for a long range shooter to get good enough for hunting. According to a great number of shooting related forums, everyone out there who reads them must be a DANIEL BOONE cause they say a lot about 500 and 600 yards. The most I have seen at our local range of 100 yards is, 6 and 8 inch groups of three shots, but this is good according to them. Here in pennsylvania most shots are 50 yards or less due to the forestry. these same people will tell you they shot at 400 yds, YEAH RIGHT. Enough ranting about a bunch of WANNA BE'S.

Since we are talking about a killing sport, the stakes get high and it actually matters what posers and blowhards think and do.

I've thrown out a standing bet at the local gunshop of $100 for anyone who can hit my 10" steel plate at 600-ish yards ON THE FIRST SHOT, from hunting positions (IE, no sandbags). No takers. It sure shuts people up though.

I've said this before... if people go out and shoot at longer distances, I mean hundreds of rounds over numerous sessions at a MINIMUM, they will learn two things: first, that hitting out to "moderate" long range is easier than they thought it would be, and second, that hitting beyond, say, 500 yards in realistic field conditions is a LOT harder than they thought it would be.

I mean hitting first shot, every time.

-jeff

In the hunting field I use a bi-pod for such shots,do you allow bi-pods in your standing bet??

Sure! Any normal "hunting" setup. Why, you coming over to Oregon to take my hundred bucks? :-)

I figure it's a no-lose for me. If someone can pull it off, I'll get to learn some stuff from a good shooter.

I will say, the winds are unpredictable and hard to read up there... word to the wise...

-jeff

I got a sling, no big deal. I"d hate to fly all the way over there though and take a look at it and say, nope, would not shoot at game in that instance, but I bet over the course of a day I"d find a time I'd be willing to ding one in... 10 inch target at 600 yards is really a HUGE target.

Would be fun thats for sure.

Oh yeah, any weekend I shoot, its never less than 88 rounds and sometimes much more than that, shoot like that almost every weekend spring through summer and ya tend to get decent. I"d take it on with my iron sights given the chance.

Jeff

Jeff, I'm sure you'd take my $100 in a heartbeat! Blindfolded. One arm tied. A lot of guys would.

I am referring to the vast majority of guys you hear in the gunshops braggin' on how their new magnum means they can shoot "1000 yards!"

-jeff

Hey, a magnum can shoot 1000 yards.. it'll even tend to stay supersonic if the idiots are using some super light bullet....

Of course accuracy is as suspect as them knowing what 1000 yards is....

Quick story.. had a guy bragging when I was guiding.. they went riding and he has a 257 wtby mag... Factory ammo loaded ESPECIALLY for him only..... they use little kernels of powder that look like mini powder kegs..... anywhich way they stumble on a blackbuck, he takes a poke. Spine shot... they come back in bragging about 1000 yards... I call the bluff when I foudn out where they were...can't see that far.. plus no one was in that pasture prior either, so of course I roll up there during the day, follow the fresh tracks, comment about distances and check with my rangefinder and it was a legit appx 325 yards, don't recall exactly... So well call the bluff again, no way, it was 800 then if not 1000..... anyway they tell my group we don't know anyway.... of course when I produced a rock with blood on it from where the antelope fell, AND the empty 257 case where he ejected it from the front seat of the jeep, and my rangefinder.... Oh well...

Average guy is hard pressed at 300, hell most can be hard pressed at 100....
Jeff

Oh btw don't let JWP show up either....

Having put some rounds in pursuit of that 10" plate myself, I would love for someone to show me how to hit it first shot every time.

POI shifts a LOT from day to day up there... variable winds. I think. They blow one way at the shooting position, another in between, and another at the plate. I think.

I have it ranged in on my turrets with my DPMS .308 but boy, from one day to another things really move around.

As I say, it would make me happy to hand a good shooter a crisp Franklin and pick their brain a little. I'm somewhat topped out at 500 yards as far as reliable hit production. Maybe I need a new place to shoot! :-)

-jeff

OK Jeff, I will take that bet.

Anyone know the drop table for a 150 grain tsx at about 3000 fps at the muzzle zeroed at 200 yards?

I will twist the turret and give it a try.

BMT

Note Im changed the $$.

BMT

Know what you mean..I bet a similar guy 1000 dollars he could not hit a dinner plate 3 of 5 at 1000 yards like he said he could...BTW..open sights on an AR...anyone know offhand the drop of a 55 grainer at 3000 at 1000 yds...

Shut him up also...

Jeff, how far south are you?

You need to spotting scope the terrain before shooting, adjusting the focus at all ranges to see what it does at all yardages... read the mirage and all the leaves, and grass, and watch the terrain for features that indicate good chance of differing possibilities like adding in extra sideways wind(gully coming in) or blocking the value of the wind(knoll that your bullet is protected from the wind for some time) Things like that you only learn by shooting and feeling out.... ask some retired military snipers a bit...


As to the poster on the 1000 yard drop, sorry, the 55 will be horribly subsonic at that range, I'd expect zilch for accuracy IMHO. FWIW dealing with drops and heavy bullets from the 223, IE 80-90s at fair speeds of 2800 or so. 300 yards to 600 yards is 10 moa, another 20 moa from 600 to 1000 IIRC, its been a couple years.... I think I recall 600 to 800 as 10 moa and then 5 moa each for 900 and 1000, but I'd have to get my data book out again to be sure. Its buried somewhere in shooting gear.

Jeff

We be at Ewwwwwgene, Orygun.

BMT

Howdy folks!

Now... let me say this... I alluded to a standing bet I had WITH GUNSHOP WANKERS. I'm not floating $100 out there to every serious long-range shooter on the planet! :-) You guys might put me in the poorhouse!

But, since we are here now, BMT I can't wait to either hand you ten bucks or vice versa! You'll enjoy my steel plates course regardless of the outcome and we'll have fun. I'll bring my big DPMS .308 which is serious fun at long ranges. And I can show you how to torture my 500-yard plate if you can't already.

JonA, I'm west of Eugene about 20 miles. Come on down! A hudred bucks might just cover your gas at least and, we'll have fun.

Again, though, just to be clear- I was NOT betting guys who literally hold world records and long-range champions, as some of you here are and do if I understand right, that they can't hit a 10" plate at 600+ yards... I was saying that I've used that bet to shut up guys who were driving me insane around here. Big difference.

But if any of you hotshots want to come to Oregon to shoot with lowly old me, I'll buy you a hell of a dinner! Any time. I would LOVE to learn from someone(s) who really knew what they are doing.

-jeff

Don't worry, I'm not all that worried about the $100 (though it would help with gas money ), I just thought it sounded like a fun challenge and might make for a fun day...if I can get away for a day.

I haven't been down to Eugene in about 10 years, back when my brother was finishing up his PhD there. It's a fair pull and would make for a long day there and back with some shooting in between, but it sounds like fun. I'm pretty booked up until around Thanksgiving time but maybe around then I could get away for a day. Thanks for the invite.

Oh, and don't confuse me with any record holder or champion. I'm just an amateur.

Mebbe you should keep a copy of the recent VHA Magazine handy and show 'em the picture of Gritter's 2.295" 5 shot group at 1000 yards. Then the picture of his gun. Guessin' they won't have the time to read the article...or the money to buy/build the equipment.

Ya know none of us shooters want money, we just enjoy dinging the target!! Jeff

PS wanna really confuse the idiots that think they got it going on? Give em some homework, give em a standard caliber, Like 270, 130, and then sighted in at 100 yards, ask them where to hold on a 476 yard shot, in an 18mph wind from 2 oclock....

What elevation? Which 130 grain bullet? temperature? velocity?

I was wishing you lived closer
I'm not a champion of anything, it wouldn't pay for the gas, don't have a rifle, but I would bring several XP-100's.
I'm content with the first shot thing, and yes, it would be a lot of fun

What barometric pressure and what phase of the moon...

Yeah... that one trips up almost everyone in my hunter safety classes... Gets them to think at least. I hope.

Most folks should think, how many ranges go past 100 yards, maybe 200 max? Most folks yacking have never even shot at the specified ranges...much less looked on a computer to calculate drop. AND they don't tend to worry about wind at all, just how FLAT the gun shoots....

How many folks have I guided and came back to pick up, and a few shot one at 300 yards in a norther and are kinda glum, they hit a bit far back or foward... of what they thought they should. Ask em if they factored the wind the answer will be what wind? ALmost every time.

JEff

What's a Kestrel?
Another common mistake is someone factors in the wind but they don't have a means of measuring it #1 and #2 they give it a full value (regardless) even if it is a head or tail wind.

Truth be known, I still make mistakes in the field, but I working on minimizing them.

I'm completely confuzzled by wind at longer ranges. Period.

There's a vast body of knowledge, some of it instinctual and some of it of the "book larnin'" type, that is necessary to acquire before anyone can legitimatly shoot beyond 400-ish yards with standard hunting equipment... IMHO. That's just based on what I've seen from myself. I'm a decent rifleman but I really hit the wall around 500 yards. At least as far as first-shot every-shot hits.

In conditions where wind didn't matter for whatever reasons, say really long heavy bullets or just no wind, things would get a lot easier with that variable removed.

Most important is the field time and that's the hard one. If I still lived in New Mexico... long distance practice would be easy. It's a production here in Western Oregon. I have to carry my steel plates down into this clearcut canyon by hand, and it has to be a clearcut or you can't see squat, and clearcuts are NOT fun to walk around in! And I just heard a vicious rumour that someone else shooting at my plates (bastiges!) was told that it isn't BLM land after all but is timber company land (it's checkerboard ownership up there) and were asked to stop. I'll shoot until they ask ME to stop but that may mean I have to huff all those plates and stands BACK out of there!

Anyway... I'll stop whining...

-jeff

I don't see the kestrel reference right now, BUT I have 2 of them, they are digital wind speed meters. I learned a LOT using them, what winds I shoot in, what ones I don't. For example I won't shoot till its calm or the wind is in an increasing cycle, I cannot see the letoffs as well as I can watch it pick up speed... steady winds are ok but generally wind is in cycles and either speeding up or letting off, timing those cycles is a major component in match shooting..

I wouldn't even think of starting a shot without a wind rosette for values....

Jeff-- if you had match shooting background things would make much more sense... you see I wanted to learn to shoot perfect scores at 600 with an AR... it took a number of years and rethinking of how to learn things, along the way you realize you can't go with just raw data from a few things, you have to learn to anticipate wind and its related issues and problems, and what makes it worse or better.... One of the best things you can see is a mirage in boil when you are ready to shoot....

Jeff

Also turrets or MOA reticle in combonation with turrents makes shooting beyound 500 yards much easier than the BDC type reticles........

rost,
I was being silly.
I try to have my Kestrel with me all the time when shooting or hunting.

Long week, longer Friday, missed that part.....have a great weekend!

Long range shooting story from the old gun store days-
Regular customer comes in after elk season- shoots an open sighted 300 Savage in Model 99-
Customer says, " I killed my cow at EIGHT HUNDRED YARDS this year!"
Trying to act appropriately impressed, I said "Wow! You must have had to hold a LONG ways over her!"
"Yup" he replied. "I had to hold almost 8 inches over her back."

But notice the "almost". He was such an awesome rifleman, that he was able to hold the requisite seven and a HALF inches over her back, with his buckhorn-sighted rifle! 8 inches of holdover, like you or me might have done, would have resulted in a wounded and lost elk.

(Buckhorns are pretty useless for major holdover from what I've messed with anyway)...

-jeff

It must have been 8 inches at his front sight... not 8 inches over the animal....

Which brings up... I used to ask Dad forever how far to lead a dove... he'd say feet, I'd lead in feet, which was at my front sight..... when it should have been communicating in common language like 4 bird lengths in front etc.....I finally learned that leading them in feet at my sight instead of at the bird I was like way otu in front and answered why most dipped really bad I was shooting in front of htem, way in front of them..

Jeff I had the same problem..My grandfather told me the same lead as your dad told you..I was leading them the same as you and I was WAY out in front untill I figured it out

Ain't life funny in that we have had some of the same mistakes!!

I'm a rifle shooter basically. Transfers well to bow and pistol. Really sucks for shotgun and shotgun gives bad rifle habits.. Guess its why it seems like it takes a box of misses come dove season to get to where I half way have it figured out.. Dog sure stays pissed for a while...

Jeff

I'm good with an upland shotgun (mine's a FW Citori) and good at "grabbing" off hand shots at deer. Those are strengths that are similar; you slap the trigger when the brain says "NOW!". These attributes can be a negative for precision rifle work, it's true!

-jeff

Yep, slapping the trigger is a no no. Plus I'm used to trying to get perfectly still shots off, isn't a plus on fast rifle shot either, though one I did recently went off wobble and all, in the middle, very quickly.. right after I thought, hmmm I better shoot before he wheels and is gone... damn the rest...

It's a different skill than "still" precision shooting. I'm happy to have it- must be all the offhand BB and .22 shooting as a kid. At the ranges I typically hunt it's all offhand, all the time, and things happen pretty quickly, and you just have to yank that trigger when the moment arrives.

I'm consistantly amazed that I seem to hit right where I'm aiming, out to 120 yards so far. I couldn't do that at a paper target, but I do it on game.

(BIG F'n knock on wood!)

-jeff

Yeah you could on paper, amazingly, the last shot I did was about 120....by guess only.

Want to get really good at the quick trigger? Start shooting bullseye pistol, 5 rounds in 10 seconds on rapid strings... AND the 10 ring ain't that big, 3 inches IIRC at 25 yards, single handed, top shooters shoot perfect scores basically.... that one really is fast AND accurate trigger control.

For me good quick shots require a tight grip on the gun with firing hand and that the finger is totally naturally placed on the trigger, IE not on the first crease like most claim is the correct way, ya gotta make sure when you activate the trigger quickly, it comes STRAIGHT to the rear, and that varies your finger position...

Jeff

I'm usually shaking a little (or a lot) when I'm playing cat and mouse with a blacktail, trying to get a clear shot, etc.

I grab the shot when the crosshairs are where I want 'em...

-jeff