Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Ruger 9mm PC Carbine and Buffalo Bore +P Hard Cast

chlinstructor made a comment in another recent thread about 9mm carbine stopping power. I was going to reply in that thread, but I decided that I should just start a new thread. So, here it is.


FYI, take a look at this and see if the 9mm may meet your performance criteria for pigs. (We don't have any around here for me to test.) I did a barrier torture test with my Ruger PC Carbine using Buffalo Bore 147 hard cast +P. The ammo chronographs at an average of 1267 fps out of my gun. (For the sake of comparison, Buffalo Bore and Mackay_Sagebrush's equivalent load both average in the 1060's out of my Sig P365 XL.)

The wind was really bad, so turn the sound off and I will narrate in text. The round penetrated a 1 gallon water jug, wallboard, jug 2, 2"X4" (probably pine) wood, jug 3, 22 gauge steel, jug 4, almost fully penetrated another sheet of 22 gauge steel, punctured jug 5 enough to cause it to leak. The bullet was later recovered on the ground just to the left of the table.



By way of comparison, I ran the exact same test twice with my P365 XL using the same wood, wallboard and steel. The round bounced off the 2X4 both times. I then ran it without the 2X4. It went like this: jug 1, wallboard, jug 2, steel, jug 3, steel (sideways), entered jug 4 and exited to the side. In a final attempt to penetrate the 2X4, I put the 2X4 in front of jug 1. The results went this way: 2X4 board, jug 1, wallboard, jug 2, steel (low), jug 3. Captured in jug 3.

That rifle and ammo combination replaced my AR15 (5.56) as my home defense rifle and general dinking around rifle. I still should do a few mag dumps to confirm reliability, but the expense and my dwindling ammo supply do pain me a little.

Run a good LBT style hardcast at a fairly modest speed and be surprised at the results. While I don't suggest them for home defense, a good hardcast bullet opens up possibilities. Hits with a 9mm +P are better than misses with a .454....

I have really gotten to like the .45 Super with 255 grain LFN GCs at about 1050 fps.

That is a STOUT load. It will kill anything you shoot at reasonable distance.

Nice test, thanks for sharing!

I believe a 9mm carbine is far more versatile than generally recognized.

I don't want anyone shooting at or near me with a 9mm carbine! I have one and it has changed my mind about the measly 9mm cartridge. I plan to load some 147gr TCLFN coated bullets in mine. They should be a fine for deer hunting at archery ranges if the cartridge was legal here. I have some nusiance coons that will get a 124gr JHP soon if they don't leave my deer feeder alone.

Cheyenne, your test results are far more impressive than I thought they might be. What distance did you conduct the test at ? I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess at 75 to 100 yards, the results would be considerably different.
And I’ve used the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman Hard Cast Load before in a Glock 19 to finish off a couple of hogs friends shot while bow hunting here at the Ranch. Also had to put down one of our older cows with a Glock 19 many, many years ago. But that was with a Speer Factory Gold Dot HP bullet. It was quite effective, when the barrel was only inches from her skull.
And of course, we all know our Resident Alaska Bear Guide effectively used one to successfully take out a Alaskan Brown Bear. With the same Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Outdoorsman Load.
So yes, I agree they do sometimes work, if that’s all you got.

And I also always enjoy and appreciate the tests you post and the great info you gather. I always find it useful and very informative.
I especially enjoyed all the testing you did with the Sig P-365. I always find your posts enjoyable and very straight forward and truthful too.

As to the quote you posted of mine, I never stated they wouldn’t work. Just that I have no use for one. I also stated that I also owned a KelTec 9mm Sub 2000 Carbine, once, but got bored with it and gifted it to my nephew.
If a 9mm carbine was the only rifle I owned, yes, I would consider it useful for pigs and varmints at proper distances. And of course, with proper shot placement.
So please don’t take any offense to my comment. And please keep up the good work ! Thanks! Chlinstructor

A LBT WFN 250 gr hard cast bullet at around 950 fps in a standard 1911 or Glock 21 has been very effective for me here on the Ranch on numerous feral hogs and a couple of deer.
Based on the results I’ve seen on pigs, I wouldn’t hesitate to use them for personal defense.

950 fps is within reach with AA7 (and other powders) in the .45 ACP with the 250 LFN GC (the ones I load are 254 grains). You are still within .45 ACP pressure limits, though towards the upper end. I've used a load at that speed in both 1911s and a Glock 21 with no issue, though my 21 does have an Alpha Wolff barrel.

They will dig in deep.

The penetrative capabilities are why I don't have them loaded for home defense, but they are what's on board when out in the woods.

They would be what I consider a +P load. My factory stock 1911’s and Glock 21 with the factory barrel and recoil spring function flawlessly with them, and have suffered no ill effects or damage that I’ve noticed.

And they will definitely out penatrate any factory HP load I’ve shot hogs with. Not to mention cutting a better entrance and exit wound with that big wide meplat.

They are hot little loads.

JWP475 shot some into 20% ballistic gel a while back and sent some pics:

10% gel is what is normally used for ammo testing.







This type of ammo will definitely penetrate deep and get to the vitals of a large animal or work well against many barriers. Back when people were doing a lot of rioting and pulling people out of cars and stuff, I swapped out my JHPs for this ammo. Figured if I needed to punch through metal and other objects then this would be a reasonable choice. Plus having LOTS of these little hammers in a few large capacity magazines is somewhat comforting.

I label them as such when I load them.

You can put a lot of rounds on target fast with a 9mm carbine. With a stout load, like the one described by the OP, it should be a good for most large animals. For defense against humans I'd prefer a well designed hollow point.

That's impressive, Cheyenne. Thanks for sharing test results.

Thanks for all of the kind words, people.

chl, you raised a really good point. I hadn’t considered the drop in velocity at 75-100 yards, as my main focus was close range defense rather than hunting. IIRC, I shot the array from about 10 yards because I didn’t feel studly (pun) enough to be able to hit the 2X4 stud at longer distance. I went back to my Labradar data to see if, by chance, it had recorded any downrange data. The series notes indicated that, miraculously, I had remembered to set the distance units to yards. Of the 5 shots, two registered velocities at 50 yards of 1205 and 1239. Three others registered velocities at 20 yards of 1197, 1216 and 1207. That is inconsistent, so I find all of the data to be inconclusive. If I remember, I may want to chrono again with the goal of getting downrange data more than muzzle velocity. (Setting the target closer to the chrono probably affects its ability to pick up downrange velocities.) An alternative would be to load some ammo with reduced charges, shoot the array at closer range (so as to assure hitting the targets), and check results with reduced velocities.


I was disappointed with the results that I got when I shot 124 grain standard velocity Gold Dots and XTPs out of the PC Carbine at 4-1 gallon water jugs. I got more water jug penetration with my Sig P365 XL from both rounds. The Gold Dots fired out of the carbine really flattened out and gave very shallow penetration. (See
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...y-xtp-hp-vs-speer-gold-dots#Post16564360 )
I also had function problems in the carbine with both rounds and I sent the gun back to Ruger. So far, it has been running the Gold Dots, but I haven't shot a ton of them. I don't have enough XTPs to spare for testing.

Reckon Phil Shoemaker could kill a bear with that if he needed to?

I am kicking this one back up to the top because we have a current thread running on this forum about the PC Carbine and also because I owed chlinstructor some updated chrono results on the Buffalo Bore load. Because I also have acquired some Lost River Ammunition Company (Mackay_Sagebrush) ammo, I chronographed that as well.


I set up the target at 100 yards and hoped to get Labradar results at that distance. I set it for velocities at 25, 50, 75, 90 and 99 yards (the latter in case the target was really at 100 and I wouldn't get a reading).

I am posting a picture of my results. Unfortunately, it didn't pick up some of the downrange results. By the time I was checking the Lost River ammo, the wind had really started to kick up. That may have affected my aim and the results. I think the results are generally valid, though.



The kinetic energy differences at 75 and 100 yards do not appear bad with either round. Basically, the round is delivering pistol muzzle velocity at those distances.

I also have to point out that I had my first malfunction that I can recall with Buffalo Bore ammo. I had a fully loaded magazine. Although all 5 rounds fired, I could not extract the chambered round (round 6) from the gun without hitting the bolt handle on the bench to extract it. (It did not require too much force.) There was no problem extracting the 6th round of the Lost River ammo by hand using the bolt handle. I have noticed since the beginning that the Lost River ammo has a stout taper crimp that the Buffalo Bore rounds do not have. I like that.

I saved both extracted rounds and noticed that they both had marks on the case mouth. The Buffalo Bore round also had some damage to the nose. Both rounds appeared to not have changed overall length. The Lost River ammo is about .010-0.015" shorter than the Buffalo Bore ammo. I am attaching 3 photos for comparison purposes. Although the Lost River ammo may appear to have a more pronounced nick on the case, that is not really the case. I think that the crimp on the Lost River ammo is the reason why I did not have any problem extracting the chambered round.







The lesson is to always test your ammo. My carbine was loaded with the Lost River ammo for defensive purposes, and it will remain so. I need to be sure not to mix it up with Buffalo Bore. For pistols it doesn't matter except for the cost differential that heavily favors Lost River.

Interesting stuff, Cheyenne. You've got me curious. I'll be checking some random cartridges that get self loaded by my carbine to see if any get marked up like those two did.

The performance of those loads looks pretty impressive, and it's nice to see the down range results.