Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 444 and 450

Leverevoution for both.

444
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -1.4 -18.6

45/70
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.5 3.0 -4.1 -27.8

and the 450
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -2.2 -21.3

I would not use Hornady's new bullet in any firearm I own.Buffalo Bore is known for loading it's ammo to maximum acceptable pressures.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition!
444 Marlin
335 grain @2025 FPS/3049 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-22)
300 grain @2150 FPS/3078 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-21)
270 grain @ 2250 FPS/3034 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-9) 250yds (-18)

45-70
430 grain @1925 FPS/3537 FPE 100 yards (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-24)
405 grain @ 2000 FPS/3597 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-23)
350 grain @ 2150 FPS/3592 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-20)
500 grain @ 1650 FPS/2931 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-6) 200yds (-17) 250yds (-33)
300 grain @ 2350 FPS/3678 FPE 100 yds (0) 150yds (-2) 200yds (-8) 250yds (-18)

As you can see,the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 444 Marlin with a 300 grain bullet compared to a 270 grain bullet in the 444 which gives the 45-70 644 more foot pounds of energy(FPE) in doing so.I am not knocking the 444 Marlin in any way as it is a good caliber but whatever the 444 can do,the 45-70 can equal or better.

Jayco

I can't leave out the .450 Marlin.I don't have time today to run the ballistics for comparison but how close can the 444 come to these velocities?A 300 grain Nosler at 2488 fps in a 24" barrel or even put it in a 26" Cowboy for over 2500 fps in a 45-70.


Off to Lewiston.

Jayco

I know that there are a number of people who just like the 45-70 over the 450 marlin, but I think it is important to emphasize that there really is no noticable difference between the two. 25 to 50 FPS is often within the average spread of rounds sent downrange, and again, we're talking max loads that few of us do very often. The handloader would most likely never know any difference at all in performance. Not that the 45-70 isn't a good old gun, and I agree that many places have more choices in ammo for it than the 450 marlin, I just hate to see the 450 made to look like it has anything like a significant shortcoming to its older brother.

Having the 450 and 444 in both rifle and pistol (10 inch BFR's), and handloading both, I think it safe to say that the 450 (and 45-70) is in the next league to the 444 in power and bullet weight, but lighter weight bullets with appropriate cross sections, and downrange performance can be surprising with the 444. It doesn't do too well with bullet weights above 350 or so, and certainly looses accuracy on my old 444s with bullet weights of 405 and up, but it's a good elk and bear gun (lets face it, anything on North America), and is more comfortable to shoot than 500 grain hammerheads. Having said that, 200 yards and under there's no doubt the 45-70 or 450 Marlin can shoot the same bullet weight flatter and with more power than the triple duece (and more kick). The shine of the 444 comes at long ranges with 270 to 300 grains, doing things sportsmen really shouldn't do for typical game hunting (but is nice to know it will).

For the original question (or the one on a similar post of elk) with a 444 or 450, either will do the job and the elk will be just as dead on the first shot if the shooter does their part, so would a black bear or white tail. And the kick will be more pleasant (sans light loads in the 450/45-70). Is the 450/45-70 more destructive? Yes. Heck, just get a Barret 50 cal and compare that to a 444, if power is what you want to compare. But there is just something about the 444 that appeals to some of us, like an old friend that you know won't let you down. It isn't the biggest guy on the block, but it doesn't take a back seat to anyone for the hunts I do.

Recoil with the 525 grain Pile Drivers and 550 grain Craters in the 45-70 is a much milder push than the snap of a 300/350/400 grain bullet at an acceptable velocity,atleast,to me and most others that shoot them,agree.I think most people just assume,as i did before doing it myself,the recoil of the 500+ grain bullets is brutal..Not even close to a 400 grain at 1950 fps or a 300 grain at 2350 or a 350 grain at 2150 but that is just my opinion after shooting them all from 250 to 550 grains in the 45-70.

The 444 is a fine caliber as the 450 Marlin and I am personally happy they came out with the 450 Marlin which gave us some data with the better bullets out there the reloading manuals seems to ignore or update for the Big Bore leverguns.

It is all in what tickles a guys fancy,I suppose, as to which caliber in Big Bore leverguns suits his fancy.

Jayco

"Recoil with the 525 grain Pile Drivers and 550 grain Craters in the 45-70 is a much milder push than the snap of a 300/350/400 grain bullet at an acceptable velocity,atleast,to me."


Back in the late '70s when I started reloading I thought the idea was to make things go BOOM! I began with a 357 JP Saurer 6 shooter. I was going to do my best to get it to go through an engine block with a 170 grain full jacketed bullet. I used to load it with Red Dot until I had to tap the brass out of the chamber. Never did get it to bust through that block, buy did just about ruin the gun, even had to have the ejection rod replaced from tapping it.

Somewhere a long the line God took pity on an idiot and I got New Model Super Blackhawk in 44 mag, and learned that slower powdwers sometimes give faster results with big bullets. A good corallary are the big black powder sharps that would drive big bullets a long way. Usually they didn't go real fast, but they didn't always kick like a mule either.

I know what you're saying, and agree. I was talking about the loads I.make up for heavies, as well as many of the loads for 300 grain bullets in 45 calibres speeding along faster than possible in 444 frames. Usually (though not always) these are loaded for speed and tend to kick a might, but a good reloader can do a lot with a proper load and powder.

kcnboise I sent you a PM hoping to get an answer
Ken43

"i'm thinking a stainless/laminate marlin 450 will fill the bill, but the local dealer tells me the 444 is a superior cartridge. he has both on hand, so it probably doesn't make much difference to him which way i go.

suggestions? thoughts? "

theres ZERO question in my experiance that the 45 calibers (450 marlin or 45/70) when loaded with a decent hard cast 400 grain bullet is a superior choice to the 444 marlin on larger game when loaded with anything available Ive seen the results from,(BTW the 265 grain and 300 grain hornadys work ok)
And Ive seen both the 44 and 45 caliber marlins used several times and have seen them used many times with both factory and handloads and used the 45 calibers with both hard cast and factory jacketed bullets myself on deer and ELK.
while the balistic charts may not fully indicate the potential a 45 caliber 400-420 grain hard cast bullet has it is fully up to 250-300 yard ELK.


ID also point out that BROWNING MAKES the 450 marlin in a front locking action (THE BLR) which is far stronger than the marlin

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...alue=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=015

you guys might recall from history that there was 60 million bison that got killed off mostly with rifles that had trajectories that were not as powerful or flat shooting as the current 45/70 or 450 marlin and shots out WELL past 200 yards were comonly made,when someone says the 45 caliber rifles are only good out to 200 yards or so, ..what they are really saying is "I can,t judge ranges and don,t know my rifles trajectory, drop and wind drift well enought to make accurate predictions on how to hold further out" in fact the trajectory of that shot made at adobe wells at something like 1800 yards was made with a rifle with a far more curved trajectory than most of you gentelmen would think about useing , it just took an experianced shot with familiar equipment and a bit of luck, something we all need to aquire.
BTW IVE seen the 8" dia ,500 yard gong at one range being hit consiatantly with a 450 marlin rifle so its well within reason to expect an experianced shot who knows his equipment to hit well past 300 yards

I've got a safe full of Leverguns 30-30's, 357 mag. 44 mag's, 35 Rem's , 375 win.s, 444, 45/70 and a 450 M...
They all have there Merits ,The 45/70- 450 M are much the same beast if you handload ,if not the 450M,as for the 444M being better ,well I look at the 444M differently than most ,I look as if it was a bit lighter kicking than the 45-70 450 m, but close to there power range...By no means am I puting one over the other though ...they are different...The 444 is a great round balisticly equal to the great 405 Win. and the 444 M has simalar balistics to the 400 Whelen
But if you want a thumper ,I'd lean toward the 45/70 - 450 M

I 've used the 45/70 (handloaded) on Bigger Black Bears with great success, the tough little 300gr. Speer bullet is a great bullet ,listed as a hollow point ,but only has a slight indention,the bullet can be pushed fast,in ethier a 45-70 or 450m.

Buckeye,

You can get a 300 grain bullet downrange out of your 444 at 2450 fps? That's what I'm getting out of my 405 Win. Now, no flies on the 444, but the ballistic equivalent of the 405 Win is a bit of a stretch. Even loading manuals show 2100 fps pretty well max for the 444 - 300. Factory 405Win - 300 are steaming at 2275 out of my #1.

Believe me when Jackfish tells you it,its the gospel. He has extensive knowledge where these cartridges are conscerned.

Back in '99...I bought a Marlin 444-P....mainly because I had a very generous supply of 44 cal 240 gr bullets...I've settled on the Hornady 265 gr..but the 270 & 300 gr bullets from Speer are very impressive with the 444.....

I believe it was Brian Pierce who made the observation that the 444 Marlin load is about 75% of the power of a 45-70 when you hand load, with commensurate less recoil. 75% of the power is all I need, and thank you very much for the reduced recoil!

I only own a 444.. bought it new for $219.00 in 1981 at Mills Fleet Farm in Brooklyn Park MN..

My buddy had to buy a 45/70 to just have one bigger than mine..

While folks always sling trajectory numbers and foot lbs etc, to act like one cartridge is superior to another...

on this subject, I got all my information in the field...

you can argue a 45/70 is superior and a 450 Marlin is superior to that.. and the 444 is inferior to both...

however any animal that has gotten in the way of a bullet within a 175 yrds of my 444, has had one reaction.. Dead right there...

and I don't know how either the 45/70 or the 450 Marlin can show any improvement upon that.....

and my handloads are never full power loads either.. I have come to rely on the 300 grain XTP with an MV of around 1700 fps...

that recoils much less than the faster loads.. allowing younger boys to be able to shoot it, as I train a lot of kids how to shoot attached to Boy Scouts...

of all of my rifles, the 444 is the Boys favorite, because they can shoot it with my handloads but go crazy over the destructive power it wields over any other caliber I have...

3 shots and they topple a tree out in the woods, these kids feel like Tarzan...( and for the tree huggers, we have lots of trees locally here in Oregon, so don't get your pants in a wad..)

for accuracy, my 444 shoots circles around any 30/30 I have ever owned ...and it has put many a 45/70 to shame...

Just bought a 444 marlin for bear hunting. Hope I like it.

John, I'm sure you will love it.A buddy of mine has a 444 and loves it. I bought a 45-70 last week. I think the best advice on this question was to get the one you like and don't look back. That's what I did. Enjoy the rifle and let us know how the bear hunting goes. I'm a new member myself and these folks are a lot of help. Tons of good information here. Welcome to the fire

I have a Marlin 444SS, and really like the gun. I bought it for bear hunting, but am going to use it on deer this year as well. I've worked up a load for the 265 gr Hornady FN, and the 300 gr XTP. I may settle on the Speer 270 gold dot as a replacement for both, if I can ever find them and begin load development.

Everyone has their favorites. My brother has a 450 XLR and loves it, but I see no real advantage of the 450 over the 444 in the areas we hunt. I get a little flatter trajectory, he gets a little more wallop, but we are generally shooting in thick areas at less than 100 yards, generally.

I am shooting a 444 with 300 speers around 2000fps with 18.5 inch barrel. It is very accurate and not too bad on the shoulder. I think factory 300 gr loads for 45-70 are around 1850fps.

Both the .444 and .45-70 shooting a 300-gr bullet at 1,800 fps is usually a very accurate load from the Marlin rifles, too. It is easy on the shoulder, too.

My 24-inch barrel Marlin .444 shoots the 265 Hornady and 270-gr Speer at 2400 fps, which is flat enough trajectory for iron sights, and these are devastating bullets that were really designed for the .444.