Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Queen Charlottes

We just got back from a week in the Queen Charlottes, or Haida Gwaii as some there would call it. The weather was typical North Coast but a couple of Monsoon days blew the rivers out and the Coho didn't come in as expected. Lots of rumours about how the Americans wiped out the run. One fellow even blamed the US because they protect Seals in Alaska and the Seals ate all the fish.

Anyway, after a couple of days catching spawned out Pinks and Doggies I gave up and switched to Cutties. Had a ball and was thank full no Salmon hit my 4 weight.

The economy up there is in the toilet. The mill workers are on strike so no one is working in the woods, the US Dollar is low so no wood is going South and even when the strike is settled most will be laid off. What a terrible time to decide to strike.

This all leads to my main point and that is a question about the Classified Waters License. A couple of friends from the States came along and bought their Non Resident Alien License and Classified Rivers License in Vancouver.

The fellow who sold them the Class Waters Lic told them that it was good all year and for any river. Not knowing any different and having been told that the store was out of copies of the regulations they arrived believing that they were in compliance with the Law. The Lic. was left blank, aside from name and resident status.

On the second day we were questioned by two CO's for Lic. and all were willingly produced. My friend showed his and was told by a young CO that it was incorrect and that he was going to receive a ticket. My friend pleaded his case about believing he was doing what was required and that he asked for the proper lic. but was given the wrong one. The CO told him it was his fault for getting the wrong license, not the Government Agent who sold it to him. He said, "If you are too dumb to get on the Computer and read the regs that is your fault." My friend is 66 years old and doesn't have nor need a Computer.

He was written a ticket by the younger CO for $125. His friend, who had the same license was not given a ticket but told to go to town and buy the appropriate licenses. The license cost for 5 days would have been $100.00. No one is quite sure why one ticket was written and the other not but needless to say, after spending $500 dollars to get there and planning to spend another $1000 each to fish neither was trying to cheat the Government out of the $100 dollars.

The upshot is both guys were upset by the ticket. Instead of being asked to correct the problem started by the Canadian Agent, wished a good day by the CO and going fishing they were told that Canadians were tired of Americans coming up there and taking their resources. They were told by the Court Secretary in Mallat that a Wildlife Conviction could result in my friend's not being allowed to buy a hunting and fishing license in Canada and may result in his being refuse entry in the future.

They flew out the next day, cutting their vacation in BC short and taking about $2000 they would have spent in the Queen Charlottes with them. I am pretty sure they won't be back to BC and will probably tell everyone they know about their experience.

I'm curious as to others opinions about the ticket and if anyone else has had a License agent screw up the license and been held responsible.

THIS is EXACTLY the type of situation that I have been TRYING to warn people about on this and similar forums for almost three years now and it is a feeling far more widespread here than most realize. HOWEVER, this type of behaviour is BULLSCHITT and NOT what BC�rs like me, want to see happen.

I don't care if these guys or any non-resident hunters/anglers come back as their economic contribution to BC is miniscule and we need our remaining wildlife-fisheries resources for ourselves. BUT, I DAMMED WELL DO CARE about how ANY LEGAL vistior to my country is treated and, as a former BC-AB and federal employee IN resource agencies, I am horrified and disgusted, this would NOT have happened in my time.

There IS a solution and it is not a difficult one; simply contact the MLA for the area and complain, WITH documentation PLUS send copies of ALL this to the Chief Conservation Officer of BC in Victoria, PHONE him, be polite but ROCKSOLID and TELL him that YOUR family fought for Canada in the WW's.

Also, mail and phone the minister's office, Wally Penner AND The Office of the Right Honourable, the Premier of B.C. AND be firm, blunt, polite and OUTRAGED that ANY legitimate visitor to BC would be treated this way. These men deserve an apology and a refund of the fine involved, plus any record of this expunged from any "record" AND it CAN be done.

I have noticed some younger COs can be pretty authoritarian and they have NO business making comments, while on duty, such as those you have posted. This is completely unacceptable and I WOULD raise holy, old, un-bridled h*ll about it, even a timid, PC guy like me!

Go get it, this ain't the BC way!

Mr. mickey:
You asked for an opinion and I will give you mine FWIW.

I would certainly pursue the avenues that Mr. kutenay suggested. Copies to everyone as he suggested, making sure that the letter shows who the copies are going to. Show them you mean it. I would put in the phone call and if available, I would also e-mail as well.

In this instance I could not agree with Mr. kutenay�s sentiments more.
� The visitor�s were legal.
� They certainly tried to comply and if that is not a case of due diligence, I am not clear as to what would be.
� They were treated in an unprofessional manner by a government employee, which even if and perhaps especially if they are LEO/CO, is WRONG.
� They should be given an apology and have the fine rescinded at the very least.

At one time in the distant past, LEO/CO�s made it a practice to treat the public with respect until the individual showed they did not deserve said respect. I was not there, but it doesn't sound like your friend provoked any such treatment.

Sadly, some of the younger LEO/CO�s in particular, show a lack of respect for the law abiding public and this will do irreparable damage if not corrected. The LEO/CO's need us, the law abiding public, on their side. Whether or not they are cognisant of that fact is another matter. In the even dimmer past I was part of an auxiliary program for the CO service. Let�s say I speak from experience, not all of it good.

Go get �em.
Dwayne

There are some strange people in the Charlottes a lot of them have a big chip on their shoulders and hate any outsiders. There are of course a lot of good people there too. All I can say that it is full of NDP and Liberal voters that want to blame everyone else for their economic and social problems. I have heard that some of the CO's are unreasonable as well so I am not surprised. I will be going there in a few weeks to hunt deer I always do my best to uphold the law but still I would rather not see the CO's.

I found the same thing on Texada last year when a VERY weird old dame about my age told me that "outsiders"were not welcome to hunt there. So, I asked her when SHE had come there and it was in the 1940s as a child from the USA....I very politely informed here that I was BORN here and that my family has lived in BC since BEFORE Confederation.....she glowered at me and stalked off to chant spells or whatever....

A few years ago, I took a guy to a spot I know in the West Kootenays for Elk and we ecncountered some antis with attitude on a trail. THEY told me that I was not WELCOME to hunt there, so, I simply said my surname and "OH" I KNOW who you are because of living here for OVER 10 years....my family went THERE in 1893......

I just laugh at people like this, BUT, I am always polite BECAUSE I have a gun and am a hunter, I want to leave a good impression, even with major [bleep] of whom we have plenty in BC, everywhere in the Province!

Good one Kute. I hope no evil spells took hold

Yesterday was the opening day of deer and elk rifle season in Montana. I stopped at a check station rolled down my window and a young game warden/CO introduce himself and reached out to shake my hand. He glance in the back of the truck bed and ask me a few questions and I ask him a few questions. The man was honest, warm, sincere, not looking for touble and interest in you, but was there to do his job.

I forgot his name but I will find it out and am going to write a letter to the game warden captain and director. I to have had problems with Alaska State Troopers and game wardens who were rude and unprofessional. The job is 90% public relations and 10% enforcement.

As a Canadian and BC resident, I am saddened by the conduct of some locals. While I lived in Victoria, I frequented some of the surrounding islands. I was shocked by the anti-American sentiment that was just underneath the skin of some of the inhabitants. I have American friends that have a place on Salt Spring Island and I feel bad when they tell me of run-ins and comments made by locals. This behaviour is, unfortunately, becoming very typical of peoples experience on these islands.

The locals on these islands don't realize that every person visiting has the same right to enjoy the very same things they do. Perhaps at some point people grumbled when they moved in. If they want seclusion, then move up onto the tundra or the Barrens or Baffin Island. There are plenty of places left!

No, foreigners DO NOT have the same rights to enjoy BC, it IS a privilege to come here, let's not forget this. I lived on a Canadian Coast Guard Lightstation on the BC coast where US yachts would come and haul in tonnes of groundfish and then sail home to California without spending dime one in BC.

Canadians have EVERY RIGHT to restrict ANY foreign visitors in OUR country in ANY way we wish to, without explanation or warning. HOWEVER, this SPECIFIC incident is WRONG and we SHOULD treat visitors with honesty and courtesy, as we want to be treated in foreign lands.

Americans ARE foreigners here, NOT persons with special status and the feelings on the Gulf Islands and in the Kootenays, which I am VERY familiar with HAVE some sound basis, there are two sides to the story.

As to seclusion, that is relative to one's personal feelings, BUT, NO visitor has ANY RIGHT to impinge on my seclusion in BC/Canada, or, that of any other Canadian. The Gulf Islands are NOT a "hideaway"for wealthy Hollywood types, people born there have the right to determine how these islands are managed.

This situation will become worse, IMO, the best way to deal with it is to NOT accept ANY behaviour from a CO/LEO or other such official that is not totally professional and this wasn't. Then, people from other nations have to realize that Canadian society IS changing and the welcome they formerly felt here might not exist now....especially in areas severely impacted by "the Softwood Lumber" issue and other such imbroglios.

We CANNOT have Candians being forced to move to isolated areas in their own country due to foreigners wanting to experience the values that we enjoy, that just is NOT on!

".....she glowered at me and stalked off to chant spells or whatever...."

Now that's funny!

Kutenay,

I meant that people visiting should be able to enjoy what they are legally entitled to. Since BC has everything up for sale, then perhaps that is where the problem lies. Seclusion has a price tag and people from BC are cashing in because there's people buying.

I completely agree, actually I was picked for a certain duty when working for the Alberta Forest Service because of my knowledge of BC/AB history, geography and ecology and my ability to communicate this to foreign visitors. Assisting legitimate visitors to our country is and has always been something I have tried to do and, even when I operated my own business, I spent hours giving free advice to foreigners, usually Americans, concerning local fishing, climbing, hiking and so forth.

However, I am opposed to any foreign ownership in BC, always have been, always will be. I can cite scores of examples of why, but, I kinda think that you are aware of these as well.

Situations like such as Mickey describes here REALLY bother me as I HATE authoritarian government officials, rudeness and I feel that these gentlemen have been badly treated which diminishes all of us as Canadians. I hope Mickey goes after the CO in question AND GETS AN APOLOGY plus re-imbursement for his pals, this is no way to treat visitors to our country.

You don't have to go to Queen Charlotte Islands to find Ahole fish cops. We have them here to in Alta. One kid this summer caught a Pickerel which was just under the legal length and his Dad informed him that he would have to throw it back in but he started crying because he was so proud and it was his first catch and he wanted to show his mom what he caught. After docking, fish cops came over and were measuring fish and sure enough a young fish cop started writing out a ticket to the Dad for the illegal fish. The father became angry and some hollering attracted a whole mob of fisherman and campers, who came to the kids defense. After being shouted at and belittled by many unfriendly comments the fish cop tore up the ticket, which was probably a wise choice at the time. I wonder if he would have drawn his Glock if beaten alittle bit? I still wonder??

I thought it might be time for an update.

My friend has contacted the gentleman who is the supervisor to the two agents in the Queen Charlottes in his office in Prince George. He stated he could/would do nothing as he has to support his agent. He did say he would have handled it differently if he had been there.

He then contacted The Honourable Barry Penner, Minister of the Environment in Victoria. He was told that this was a Conservation issue and he had no interest in it or the outcome.

Thirdly he contacted Mark Hayden, Director/Chief Conservation Officer. He is the overall head of the Conservation Officers in BC and his name was given me by our local CO (who said the ticket was chickenshit). Despite repeated calls and promises from his Secretary he has yet to return a call.

He has contacted the Court in Masset. He was told that in order to get a change in venue to the Lower mainland he would have to plead guilt. Sentencing could then take place in Vancouver. (Remember we are talking about a $115.00 fine)

It would cost around $1000.00 to go to Masset but a dismissal would probably be worth it in regards to his status to hunt/fish or even come to Canada.

We have all written letters to the Magistrate and to the Barry Penner. A few other friends have also to voice their concern but who know what will happen in the end.

I would NOT plead guilty OR pay the fine; this is NOT right and doing so will only ensure that he WILL be considered "guilty" and his opportunities here curtailed. It may seem rather odd that I am interested in this due to my increasing opposition to foreigners hunting/fishing in BC, however, I dislike injustice in any form, the "softwood lumber" issue being only one example.

The way to deal with this now, is to get MEDIA attention to it and to do that, you need to contact the Vancouver newspapers and TV stations, especially Global TV. The approach to take is to stress that this chap was a visitor here who TRIED to do the right thing and was treated poorly and in an unacceptable manner by a supposedly professional government employee.

You may or may not be successful, but, media attention REALLY spooks politicos and having been involved in environmental conservation since my teens, I know how this works. I also would consider hiring a lawyer and letting the CO supervisors you mention KNOW this; the one who will not investigate as he has to "support" his subordinate is full of horseschitt, IMO, he is SUPPOSED to be there to guard agsinst precisely this type of BS.

You are dealing with one of the worst governments in all of BC history, neo-con corporatists who would sell ANYTHING in BC for a quick buck.....makes you REAL PROUD to be a BCer, eh? Penner is a smarmy little creep who WAS a "Parks Ranger"and NOW poses as though he gives a ratsazz about wilderness; he makes me want to vomit as do his colleagues, especially "Ginhead Gordie", our Premier........

Keep it up, this kind of crap is a disgrace to decent people in BC and is NO way to treat a visitor to "Lotusland"....

Kutes

He knows the danger of pleading guilty. He did contact a Lawyer and was told to plead innocent and get a Court Date. The Lawyer says that will give him some time to look into what the law is versus what they say the law is. He is willing to spend the money to fly to Masset if need be but obviously would rather not.

So you think anyone in Van would be interested?

I am not really familiar with the lawyers here and those whom my wife works with are labour and compensation specialists who would have no specific knowledge of this type of law. So, the only guy I can think of would be Phil Rankin, whose office helped me briefly with a firearms issue last January.

Now, Phil, son of the the legendary Harry Rankin has been a successful litigant against the Vancouver Police Dept. in some of their brutal treatment of citizens and "might" be interested, I honestly don't know, but, it costs nothing to ask. The VPD has been found culpable in a case or two of mistreating convicted drug dealers, for exxample, and Phil has taken up their case and succeeded.

Yeah, I loathe drug dealers too, BUT, what the VPD goons did WAS ILLEGAL and violent; in order to protect the rights of good citizens, we MUST protect the rights of ALL citizens and NOT allow LEOs, of any type, to call the shots as they see fit. So, he is the one suggestion I would make.

Phil Rankin is at 157 Alexander St. Van., phone number is 604-682-3621, you might call them and ask if they would consider acting for your friend. This WILL cost, so, you all have to consider what it is worth to you/him.

I think that, should you contact the media, the point to stress is the comments made by the CO which are just unbelievable, but, this type of ego-tripping little dickhead is all too common among BC resource agency workers now. I have encountered it when calling BCFS offices for road info. and I am pretty capable of dealing with it, shall we say......

There is no question that many BC�rs now are opposed to Americans hunting/fishing here, SO, do not stress the supposed economic benefits to our Province as that just tends to irritate people; the points to stress are the CO's behaviour, the fact that the guy ticketed WAS trying to do the right thing AND ESPECIALLY that a visitor to BC was treated this way AFTER all the tax monies spent by gov't. trying to attract tourists.

This process is NOT going to be easy, fun or inexpensive, the govt. types concerned WILL "CYA" and it will take persistence and a will to see real justice done...sad, too many power-tripping little punks in uniform everywhere these days!

I have been reading with interest and i am curious,why was your other friend NOT given a ticket? or am i missing something.
Dave