Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters X Bullet history, fact or fiction

In the current issue of Rifle, Dave Scovill pretty much takes credit for the idea of cutting the three groves in the x bullet. He menitioned that he discussed it with Randy and later requested a crimping groove for a 300 grain x bullet in 405 wcf.

Based on Dave's conversation with Randy and the experiment with the 405 crimping groove, the Barnes engineers took it from there and the TSX was born (Dave wanted to call it the Ringtail but that did not settle with Barnes).

So, based on Daves account, it appears that he is responsible for the development of the TSX. I have found that Dave has a tendancy to give himself a lot of credit, in a back door kinda way, and I was wondering what the actual truth of the matter is.

Anyone know!

Well, I think Bob Fulton at Hawk Bullets was doing it (i.e., cutting grooves) well before that. So for either Scovill or Barnes to take credit for it is somewhat revisionist. Moreover, multiple groove designs of cast bullets goes way back into the 19th century, if not before.

+1, grooved cast bullets have been around for a while.

I have not read the article, but if as you describe, Dave is telling a tall one here...

Solid copper bullets have been around commercially for much longer than Barnes has been making them (and they have been copied multiple times too).

Gs bullets

I doubt they were the first, but I do know they pre-date Barnes (even with Dave help!) by many years.

John

I've heard John Lazzaroni took credit for it as well FWIW.
The only thing I care about is SOMEONE did it.......
As I love my TSX"S..............

I have not adopted TSX's yet but I can see that they will be in my future...

I read that story too because I wanted to see how it tracked my genesis of the Barnes monometal bullets (and to see if they are officially on Barnes v.4 or v.5).

The first ringed jacketed bullet I used was the .224/55 grain Nosler Zipedo. Next were the GS solids in .375/270 and the North Fork .375s. Then the Barnes TSX.

Of course lead bullets have had all manner of rings, grooves and appurtenances for hundreds of years.

I have no knowledge of Mr. Scovill's participation, because "Hell I Wasn't There" (to borrow from Mr. Keith). <---humor

jim

257Bob - my impression of Mr. Scovill's disbursement of credit jibes with yours. Best, John

Well, Scovill says in his story that "...we discussed the idea of cutting grooves in the shank..."

He doesn't say who all was present besides himself and Randy Brooks (president of Barnes). Could be several other people participated in this particular discussion.

Scovill also says "Randy agreed the concept might work..." which suggests that someone other than Randy Brooks first broached the idea, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was Scovill. It doesn't even mean that nobody had suggested it to Brooks on a previous occassion.

Strictly speaking, all Scovill is really saying in his story is that he was there when it was discussed on a particular day. Guess it's our fault if we read something more into it.

- TJM

Dave and I both talked about grooving X bullets long before Barnes got around to doing it on the X bullet. It was common knowledge that grooved bullets offered many advantages - which is why North Fork and GS were already doing it.
Dave and Randy Brooks have been close friends for a long time and all Dave did was suggest that Randy Brooks try it. I don't think Dave is trying to take any credit for "discovering" gooves. He was simply asking Randy and Connie to give them a try. He likewise suggested that they try a plastic tip on the new bullets.
If any of you ask Randy about this I'm sure he will confirm it as well.

Dave has also been casting bullets for a long, long time and hence was well aware of the advantages of grooves--and that grooved bullets of all sorts have been around for a much longer time than he has.

JB

Maybe I missed something. As mentioned by others grooved bullet shanks weren't new. My take was that Scofy made a suggestion and supported a change, not that he invented grooves. I think that was the Lovin' Spoonfull with their song "Groovin". Does that make the TSX an old Hippie throwback?

Nope, the song was written and performed by The Young Rascals (aka The Rascals), and was a #1 song in 67.
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From the Dept of Redundancy Dept: Back in 2004 I posted here a quote from a paragraph of an Elmer Keith article in The American Rifleman from April 1937. Keith described his involvement in the manufacture and shooting of a bronze monometal bullet in 25 caliber, 77 grains, boat-tailed, spitzer, with an open point and cavity extending half the bullet length. Except for metal type, it was pretty much a TSX.

Elmer and his friends didn't gamble their livelihood on the public's acceptance of the bullet. Brooks did, and deserves the reward.

--Bob

...the original screw machine Nosler Partitions had a relief groove over the partition.

I've still got some of those old grooved NP's on the shelf. I can remember reading years ago when Elmer Keith was remeniscing about lathe-turned bronze bullets, I seem to recall his saying they shot very accurately but couldn't be expected to expand... Does anyone remember the wasp-waisted bullets Herters used to sell, "wasp-waisted sonic" or some such thing. Herters never had a problem coming up with descriptive names.

In 1937, Keith wrote two articles for Amereican Rifleman describing experiences with two very different types of bronze bullets. Both types were hand-made individually on lathes.

In the April issue he wrote about bronze bullets which Charles O'Neil made for experiments with the .250 O'Neil Magnum. These were the grooved bullets with the front cavity I mentioned above. These bullets expanded well, blowing large holes in porcupines, jack rabbits, and a car-crippled dog.

In the July issue Keith wrote about some bronze bullets in .220 Swift ammunition. This is probably the report you remember, since Keith referred to it in his later writing. The Swift rifle and ammunition was supplied by Wotkyns, whose work had prompted Winchester to introduce the Swift in 1935. I supsect that the bullets were turned by Sweaney, who was Wotkyns co-worker in California at that time.

The Swift bullets were of two types, one of 55 grains with a solid shank of groove diameter. The other of 52.5 grains had a body of bore diameter with two bands of barrel groove diameter; externally it probably resembled a TSX. These were solid bullets and very accurate, but both types failed to expand when Keith and a young Bob Hagel shot jack rabbits with them.

--Bob

I thought it was interesting that the "history of the X" did not mention the XLC..... FWIW, Dutch.

I recall reading where Dave said that the Cape Buffalo that he killed in Africa with the Turnbull 50 express wieghed 2 tons. A bit of an overstatement to say the least...

Failures are definitely orphans.

jim

That was a blast from the past. Man I loved gettin that catalogue when I was a young fella.