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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,848 Likes: 7 |
My experiences have more or less mirrored Jim Knight's. Out of 3 rifles, a Ruger 77 (possibly one of the most inaccurate rifles I'd ever owned), a '95 sporter, and a BRNO 21H...I just gave up on the first 2 and eventually accepted the BRNO for what it was, a good hunting rifle, but never getting much better than 1.4 moa 5 shot grps. I just ran out of patience with the old 7, endless experiments in bedding, loading, scope swapping, case prep, recut crowns yadda yadda. Eventually, the BRNO used 46gr of 760 and any 160 gr cup and core. Then, the great copper bullet edict came down from the Gods ruling the land of fruits and nuts...and it was back to square one...where it remains, doomed to mediocrity. In these times of component drought, my battery of bubba beaters and pawnshop rejects in 6.5 Swede to 8x57 that were so much easier to tune and feed with easy peasy 1 moa occupy my front row in the safe. I wonder if Bell used the old 7 on elephant because it was too inaccurate for dik-dik. Flint, I've posted this a bunch of times since I've been on the campfire, when this subject comes up. One of the most, if NOT THE MOST, inaccurate rifle I've ever owned was also a Ruger 7 x 57, Model 77 Mk 2. And I ended up with two of them, brand new. Could get either one to shoot ANYTHING that I tried. Literally 5 inch groups at 100 yds was the best EITHER one of those rifles would do... Finally got to the point, the two options I was considering, was either: 1. Throw the damn rifle in the river.. ( ala Schtick, the way he cleans his barrels) 2. Rebarrel the rifle to 6mm Rem with a 1 in 7 twist. For some reason, seeing a load of 40 grains of 3031, from an older Hornady manual, with a 175 grain SP, grabbed my attention. Something in me possessed me to give the rifle ONE more try or chance. So I loaded up 5 rounds, and took it over to the range. My expected 5 inch groups ( or larger) evaded me, and that load gave me a half inch group! Wait a minute! I'd already had made sure everything else was tight on the rifle, every bolt and screw on that rifle... ( the other just lived in the back of the safe, waiting to figure out what was going to be done to it.) That 1/2 inch group, made no sense given the history on both rifles of their previous results. So went home and loaded up some more... 5 with the 175 gr SP and 5 with the 175 gr RN. Back to the range. Same ol half inch groups again? WTF? Tried some of the previous attempted loads... back to 5 inch plus groups... but using 40 grains of 3031 with the 175 grain bullets, the skies turned blue, the angels sang etc. Why look a gift horse in the mouth? But typical with my mind... if that worked so well, what would the same load do with say, a 160 grain Speer? That gave a 1/2 inch group, once again! Hell! I'm on a roll, maybe lets see what a 150 grain bullet with the same load give me? Once again, the clouds receded, the sky turned blue, the angels sang... and a 1/2 inch group appeared once again! and the same thing happened over and over, with 140 grainers, 145 grainers, 139 grainers, 130 grainers, even 120 grainers.. The angels and that Ruger 7 x 57 evidently LOVED 3031, especially 40 grains of it...bullet weight didn't seem to matter... Pulled that second 7 x 57 out of the back of the gun safe, and low and behold, so did it... Made no sense, but I'm a type of guy if something works, I don't need to question why it works... just STFU and keep on truckin'. The second Ruger 7 x 57, ended up going to a new home with a campfire member in Pennsylvania, with the recommendation of using ONLY 3031 with a 40 grain Charge. The one I kept, never ended up with a 1 in 7 twist 6mm Remington Barrel on it...That ended up on a Rem 700, which turned out to be the most accurate rifle barrel I've ever had...Long Action of course. The one other powder that did just like 3031 in that Ruger rifle, was SR 4759. That powder with a charge of 28 grains of it, and 115 grain HP bullets, dropped several decent sized Blacktails, in east coast style heavily wooded type hunting situations...short range, rifle having minimal recoil, and heart shots each time.. Bang flop... ON the other end of the spectrum, I had a real nice Model 70 Featherweight fall into my hands up in Roseburg, at Cascade Ammunition. Three hundred bucks... had an aftermarket recoil pad put on it and came with Leupold Rings and Bases., looked brand new out of the box, but came with NO Box. Previous ( and original owner) put it on consignment, and over 90 days, the price had dropped to $300. It sat high on the wall on display. I asked to see it when it caught my eye. Guy behind the counter, got kind of pissy when I asked to see it. First thing he said, its on sale because it is chambered in a 7 mm Mauser, and every customer I have climbed up and got that thing down for, has asked what is it chambered in? It Says 7 mm Mauser on the barrel.. What in the hell is that? I tell them what it is and they hand it back to me.....So Finding ammo is going to be a nightmare. So I'm not climbing up there and putting it back! My response was " I know exactly what a 7 mm Mauser is.. and finding ammo is not going to be a problem, because I hand load ALL of my ammo." He climbed up and got it, it was immaculate. I had $300 in my wallet, and as he finished with another customer on some ammo purchase, I had the $300 on the counter, and told him to write it up. "ARE YOU KIDDING me, you are going to buy it?" Write it up! " HOT DAMN! we've been trying to sell that rifle for 3 months...plenty of lookers and no buyers... and if it don't shoot worth a damn there is no returns on it! You good with that?" NO problem, write it up....While he is handing me the paper work, he gets on the phone and calls the owner... I JUST FINALLY SOLD YOUR GUN! for $ 300 cash." I fill out the form and hand it to him, and he does the required 'damn' background check. it came back approved in like 3 seconds...He takes my money, rings it up... " I'm so happy to see that gun have a new home, the background check is on us!".. then a " so long sweetheart!....oh, I was talking to the Rifle".... I get this thing home, mount a scope on it, a 3 x 9 Nikon, ( from another purchase at Roseburg Gun Shop for cheap). Zeroed the scope in a couple of shots... Model 70 Featherweight, found out it had been bedded... 7 mm Mauser, but the rifle evidently thinks its a varmint rifle...Damn well shoots like one.. and still does to this day... WHATEVER I feed it...This will be one of the few guns that will still be in the gunsafe on the day I breathe my last...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 9,141 Likes: 3 |
Seafire, You have inspired me to try again, as soon as the sun hits the shop...out comes the 3031...I will report results in case it's too cold for the angels to sing. 36 deg here now in the land of fruits and nuts.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,612
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
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I can testify to the load Seafire recommends without hesitation! Way back last century, I bought a pile of Remington 150 grain Core-Lokt .284 bullets from Midway for 39.95/500. Tried every powder I had, 4350,4831,414,380,4064,4895,and 4320 with the BEST group of 3 MOA! They sat for several years then a fellow (Seafire) said to try 40 grains of IMR-3031 for any 7x57 that would not shoot. I decided there was nothing to lose in trying it but, had little faith it would work. Lo and behold groups shrank down to 1 to 1.5" and I'm grateful.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
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Steve,
This is pretty much my experience as well, having used all four cartridges--along with the .280 Ackley Improved--on wide variety of big game, along with being alongside other hunters who use 'em. Oh, and also have some experience with the 7mm STW.
Mentioned this in another post on this thread in late September: "Have hunted a LOT with both the 7x57 and .280. In the 7x57 I mostly (but not always) have used bullets in the 160-grain range at around 2700 fps, from various 21-22" barrels. In the .280 I've also used 160s a lot, at 2900+ fps. Just looked at my hunting notes, and the longest kills with both cartridges were 350-400 yards with 160-grain bullets. Both worked fine, because they put a hole all the way through the vitals."
This is also what a LOT of experienced hunters have noted with a wider range of cartridges: As long as the bullet penetrates and expands sufficiently, there's relatively little difference on how the bullet (not the cartridge) kills big game.
But many hunters still make a big deal about minor differences muzzle velocity (even 50 fps), bullet weight and diameter. That's pretty much the way things work for me. 7x57 with 160s at 2750 or if using monos, TTSX 140s at 2900
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2009
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My experiences have more or less mirrored Jim Knight's. Out of 3 rifles, a Ruger 77 (possibly one of the most inaccurate rifles I'd ever owned), a '95 sporter, and a BRNO 21H...I just gave up on the first 2 and eventually accepted the BRNO for what it was, a good hunting rifle, but never getting much better than 1.4 moa 5 shot grps. I just ran out of patience with the old 7, endless experiments in bedding, loading, scope swapping, case prep, recut crowns yadda yadda. Eventually, the BRNO used 46gr of 760 and any 160 gr cup and core. Then, the great copper bullet edict came down from the Gods ruling the land of fruits and nuts...and it was back to square one...where it remains, doomed to mediocrity. In these times of component drought, my battery of bubba beaters and pawnshop rejects in 6.5 Swede to 8x57 that were so much easier to tune and feed with easy peasy 1 moa occupy my front row in the safe. I wonder if Bell used the old 7 on elephant because it was too inaccurate for dik-dik. Flint, I've posted this a bunch of times since I've been on the campfire, when this subject comes up. One of the most, if NOT THE MOST, inaccurate rifle I've ever owned was also a Ruger 7 x 57, Model 77 Mk 2. And I ended up with two of them, brand new. Could get either one to shoot ANYTHING that I tried. Literally 5 inch groups at 100 yds was the best EITHER one of those rifles would do... Finally got to the point, the two options I was considering, was either: 1. Throw the damn rifle in the river.. ( ala Schtick, the way he cleans his barrels) 2. Rebarrel the rifle to 6mm Rem with a 1 in 7 twist. For some reason, seeing a load of 40 grains of 3031, from an older Hornady manual, with a 175 grain SP, grabbed my attention. Something in me possessed me to give the rifle ONE more try or chance. So I loaded up 5 rounds, and took it over to the range. My expected 5 inch groups ( or larger) evaded me, and that load gave me a half inch group! Wait a minute! I'd already had made sure everything else was tight on the rifle, every bolt and screw on that rifle... ( the other just lived in the back of the safe, waiting to figure out what was going to be done to it.) That 1/2 inch group, made no sense given the history on both rifles of their previous results. So went home and loaded up some more... 5 with the 175 gr SP and 5 with the 175 gr RN. Back to the range. Same ol half inch groups again? WTF? Tried some of the previous attempted loads... back to 5 inch plus groups... but using 40 grains of 3031 with the 175 grain bullets, the skies turned blue, the angels sang etc. Why look a gift horse in the mouth? But typical with my mind... if that worked so well, what would the same load do with say, a 160 grain Speer? That gave a 1/2 inch group, once again! Hell! I'm on a roll, maybe lets see what a 150 grain bullet with the same load give me? Once again, the clouds receded, the sky turned blue, the angels sang... and a 1/2 inch group appeared once again! and the same thing happened over and over, with 140 grainers, 145 grainers, 139 grainers, 130 grainers, even 120 grainers.. The angels and that Ruger 7 x 57 evidently LOVED 3031, especially 40 grains of it...bullet weight didn't seem to matter... Pulled that second 7 x 57 out of the back of the gun safe, and low and behold, so did it... Made no sense, but I'm a type of guy if something works, I don't need to question why it works... just STFU and keep on truckin'. The second Ruger 7 x 57, ended up going to a new home with a campfire member in Pennsylvania, with the recommendation of using ONLY 3031 with a 40 grain Charge. The one I kept, never ended up with a 1 in 7 twist 6mm Remington Barrel on it...That ended up on a Rem 700, which turned out to be the most accurate rifle barrel I've ever had...Long Action of course. The one other powder that did just like 3031 in that Ruger rifle, was SR 4759. That powder with a charge of 28 grains of it, and 115 grain HP bullets, dropped several decent sized Blacktails, in east coast style heavily wooded type hunting situations...short range, rifle having minimal recoil, and heart shots each time.. Bang flop... ON the other end of the spectrum, I had a real nice Model 70 Featherweight fall into my hands up in Roseburg, at Cascade Ammunition. Three hundred bucks... had an aftermarket recoil pad put on it and came with Leupold Rings and Bases., looked brand new out of the box, but came with NO Box. Previous ( and original owner) put it on consignment, and over 90 days, the price had dropped to $300. It sat high on the wall on display. I asked to see it when it caught my eye. Guy behind the counter, got kind of pissy when I asked to see it. First thing he said, its on sale because it is chambered in a 7 mm Mauser, and every customer I have climbed up and got that thing down for, has asked what is it chambered in? It Says 7 mm Mauser on the barrel.. What in the hell is that? I tell them what it is and they hand it back to me.....So Finding ammo is going to be a nightmare. So I'm not climbing up there and putting it back! My response was " I know exactly what a 7 mm Mauser is.. and finding ammo is not going to be a problem, because I hand load ALL of my ammo." He climbed up and got it, it was immaculate. I had $300 in my wallet, and as he finished with another customer on some ammo purchase, I had the $300 on the counter, and told him to write it up. "ARE YOU KIDDING me, you are going to buy it?" Write it up! " HOT DAMN! we've been trying to sell that rifle for 3 months...plenty of lookers and no buyers... and if it don't shoot worth a damn there is no returns on it! You good with that?" NO problem, write it up....While he is handing me the paper work, he gets on the phone and calls the owner... I JUST FINALLY SOLD YOUR GUN! for $ 300 cash." I fill out the form and hand it to him, and he does the required 'damn' background check. it came back approved in like 3 seconds...He takes my money, rings it up... " I'm so happy to see that gun have a new home, the background check is on us!".. then a " so long sweetheart!....oh, I was talking to the Rifle".... I get this thing home, mount a scope on it, a 3 x 9 Nikon, ( from another purchase at Roseburg Gun Shop for cheap). Zeroed the scope in a couple of shots... Model 70 Featherweight, found out it had been bedded... 7 mm Mauser, but the rifle evidently thinks its a varmint rifle...Damn well shoots like one.. and still does to this day... WHATEVER I feed it...This will be one of the few guns that will still be in the gunsafe on the day I breathe my last... Tag... good and interesting info , thanks Seafire
Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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Well don't think I wont be trying the 40/3031 in my newly barreled 7x57 Seafire! ha I found some 3031 way back in my powder magazine...I will, of course, try some of the old standbys and some newer guys ( Staball, Hunter, etc) I'm one of those guys that think a cartridge should be loaded to the strength of the brass, safely of course, and action design. I did own one Model '93 that shot the S&B 173 Cutted Edge very well!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,918 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,918 Likes: 9 |
Haven't read the thread, but am wondering what the over/under is on the % of posts that advocate some other chambering than the two in the question.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Because opinions are like...
The way life should be.
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Joined: May 2016
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Navels????? 
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18 |
Maybe.
My personal experience with the 7x57 includes at least a dozen rifles, and only one or two refused to shoot sub-inch groups with basic hunting loads. And it didn't require a vast search for the "right" powder. Instead IMR4350 (or something very much like it) has worked great for bullet weights from 140-160 grains.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2014
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Well I tried the Seafire 'easy button' 40 gr 3031 with 160 gr Sierras yesterday, a schidtful 2 moa...dammit, just dammit all to hell...nothing is easy. There is something I'm overlooking with this BRNO 21H, some fundamental fault that I am not seeing. Rechecked barrel channel clearance, guard screw torque, scope mount integrity. I was frustrated enough after the test, I began to think it was my bench technique, so I fired off 5 rds with a .308 of known accuracy...bingo, got under 1 moa. Considering everything, cost and scarcity of components chasing the load, I'm about to the point of finding somebody to hog out the barrel and make a 7.65 Mauser or something out of it.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,381 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: Jun 2005
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"I'm about to the point of finding somebody to hog out the barrel and make a 7.65 Mauser or something out of it."
You could always send it to me and let me be the one to be frustrated. I have a Ruger M77RSI that took a hair over two years just to find one load that was useable for hunting purposes. Best it'll do is 1.25 to 1.50" with the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. The load while not spectacular, has accounted for IIRC, 16 deer at ranges from about 6 feet to 250 yards. I have rifles that are sub .50" but that RSI is probably one of my most favored deer rifles. Change any component, be it powder, primer, brass or bullet and accuracy goes straight to hell.That rifle is truly a one trick pony.
PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
MOLON LABE
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I have a Ruger M77RSI that took a hair over two years just to find one load that was useable for hunting purposes. Best it'll do is 1.25 to 1.50" with the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. The load while not spectacular, has accounted for IIRC, 16 deer at ranges from about 6 feet to 250 yards. I have rifles that are sub .50" but that RSI is probably one of my most favored deer rifles. Change any component, be it powder, primer, brass or bullet and accuracy goes straight to hell.That rifle is truly a one trick pony.
PJ I couldn't agree more. One of my first big game rifles was a 77RSI in 308, and I have had two others since then. They are easily the best handling short-barreled rifle I have ever owned. A Remington Model 7MS (laminated Mannlicher stock) was just as good. I think the extra forward weight and slim forend both contribute to the exceptional handling.
FÜCK Jeff_O!
MAGA
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Campfire Outfitter
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PJ Gunner, Next time I'm visiting the BIL in Salome, I'll PM you...Gila Bend is halfway, there are worse rifles to own than BRNO 21's.
Well this is a fine pickle we're in, should'a listened to Joe McCarthy and George Orwell I guess.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,953 |
One of my first big game rifles was a 77RSI in 308, and I have had two others since then.
They are easily the best handling short-barreled rifle I have ever owned. A Remington Model 7MS (laminated Mannlicher stock) was just as good. I think the extra forward weight and slim forend both contribute to the exceptional handling. Ruger got it wrong by not making that RSI with a 20" bbl and a slimmer forend. I wish they'd rectify that and sell a few in 35Remington or 358Winchester.
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Campfire Outfitter
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"I wish they'd rectify that and sell a few in 35Remington or 358Winchester."
They did make a very few RSI rifles in .358 Win, most likely a short list in single digits. I know of a fellow that has one. He showed pictures. I tried talking him out od it but he wasn't having any.
On another note, back in 1981 at the NRA convention in Phoenix I had a talk with the Ruger representative about doing a run of RSI's in .358 Win. To see his reaction, you'd have thought I'd just asked his mother into joining in on a gang bang. The string of four letter words was amazing. He sure knew a few.
I have three RSIs. One has a stock that it a little on the clubby side compared to the other two. I've given thought to taking one of the two M77s I have in .358 and seeing if it's feasible to cut the barrel to 18.5" and placing the .358 barreled action into the RSI stock? Then I would have to chase down another RSI stock for the .308 barreled action. Interesting thoughts I'm thinking.
PJ
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
MOLON LABE
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2010
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One of my first big game rifles was a 77RSI in 308, and I have had two others since then.
They are easily the best handling short-barreled rifle I have ever owned. A Remington Model 7MS (laminated Mannlicher stock) was just as good. I think the extra forward weight and slim forend both contribute to the exceptional handling. Ruger got it wrong by not making that RSI with a 20" bbl and a slimmer forend. I wish they'd rectify that and sell a few in 35Remington or 358Winchester. Email a distributor that does Ruger special runs. You may just get your wish.
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Campfire Tracker
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Ruger could sell in a hurry:
6.5x55-1500(quantity)
7x57-750
280 Rem-1500
35 Rem-1000
358 Win-750
338/06-750
35 Whelen-750
Ruger works off of distributor orders....plain and simple. If you wanted to order 500 of one of these in a SS Hawkeye, you may get some attention.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,953 |
On another note, back in 1981 at the NRA convention in Phoenix I had a talk with the Ruger representative about doing a run of RSI's in .358 Win. To see his reaction, you'd have thought I'd just asked his mother into joining in on a gang bang. The string of four letter words was amazing. He sure knew a few. That's strange because Ruger was never afraid to chamber the 358 in a lot of other rifles including the BLR and the 77.
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Isn't the BLR a Browning.
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