Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Canada Ivi Imperial centerfire rifle ammo

A guy I used to work with called me this morning and said he had 3 boxes of 7x57 to sell was I interested? 2 boxes were Imperial factory 160.gr kksp bullets they.look like round nose to me. So what is a kksp? Thanks in advance

Mb

Magnum Bob;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day behaved for you and you're well as can be.

The Imperial and before that Dominion bullets marked KKSP were Kling Kor Soft Point. They were often but I don't believe always round nosed bullets.

The "Kling Kor" was accomplished by the jacket being physically crimped into the lead core below the cannelure. This crimp would be in 4 places usually I want to say and would pierce the jacket so it bent into the lead core.

I thought I had some in my collection somewhere and if I can lay hands on one I'll take a photo and post it.

If they're Imperial then they're newer than the Dominion stuff.

We used lots of both Dominion and Imperial brass and it was okay, certainly not Lapua or Norma, but it worked.

Hope that made sense and was useful.

Dwayne

Kling Kor soft point. Bullets have some divots punched into the jacket to secure the core. They are actually not a bad bullet within their velocity range. Impact velocities of 2000 fps or less are probably best. I always felt IVI ammo was a come down from the older CIL Dominion brand but there probably isn't much difference. My first big game was killed with a CIL bullet ( handloaded) and my first elk was killed with a 303 factory load and a sabre tip bullet. GD

Dwayne thank you. Understand I usually load all my centerfire ammo. He wanted $20 for all 3 boxes so I gave him the 20. 1 box was federal and was mixed with some 150 gr ww power pts and 175 gr federal rn.. Just 10 minutes later I run into a couple of buds one who is looking for some factory 7x57 ammo. I started laughing about sheer coincidence and told him to meet me at my truck out in the parking lot. 7x57 ammo down here if you find any is a 45-50/ box deal. I explain my fortuitous deal and he said make me a deal on the 150 gr ww ammo. I just laughed and he said 10? no not that much make it 6. Now I have $ 14 in 50 rds. Still laughing. Mb

That KKSP was pretty darn dependable in the 300 Savage. Those old Sabre tips worked ok as well

Have some if you can’t get pictures Dwayne

Lorne what is the going rate on a box of 300 sav up there right now if you can find any ? Mb

Lorne;
Good evening to you sir, I hope that life is going more or less according to plan out east and you're all well.

If you can provide a photo that'd be grand, as at present the whereabouts of the sample of the KKSP remains a mystery at our place.

It's one of those times where I can see the thing in my mind and I "know" where I see it in my mind, but of course in reality, it's absent.

Of course it'll turn up a year from now and I won't remember this, but will remember that I wanted it for something or other.....

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

Magnum Bob;
Good evening once more, thanks for the reply and further story.

Of course I do love a good story and that one is a fine twist of events.

Since we're talking about Imperial and/or Dominion stuff and then you brought up .300 Savage....

1960's as best as I can figure - Full box too.



1950's or a tad earlier? Full box once more.



The "stuff" one collects in a lifetime of fooling with firearms, you know?

All the best.

Dwayne

Lol Dwayne you and I as well a few others here are part of the maligned " gun culture". Do you shoot much of the Imperial? Ammo or is it all collector stuff now?mb

Magnum Bob;
Thanks for the reply again.

If memory serves it was '84 that IVI - Imperial quit manufacturing center fire ammo.

Unless I was picking up brass or getting something barreled by a particular gunsmith who liked to fire 3 factory rounds through each job he did, I can't recall the last time I bought any factory ammo.

If I'm not wrong it was 6.5x55 Hornady just for that purpose when my walking around .270 became that instead.

Oh, there are shotgun shells sold under the Imperial name now and if I'm not wrong they're made up here, but it's someone who bought the name I believe.

When we run across Imperial brass or even old Dominion for some of the odd rounds they loaded for, we'll grab them for the brass for sure.



As mentioned I've had decent luck with Dominion brass and once inspected the Imperial isn't terrible, but surely not like say Winchester brass from 30 years back and absolutely not Norma or RWS.

Anyways, it's part of Canada's history so I like to collect it, but mostly just for that reason.



That said, our girls are already telling me they don't want to deal with all my "stuff" so I either need to remain healthy as I age or begin to disperse some of it.

Best to you once more sir.

Dwayne

Bob, I took some pictures for you to examine.

KKSP cores were actually held inside the jacket using two crimps. A stab crimp which Bill made reference to. As well, the cannelure also gripped the core. If you look closely at the cannelure, you can see how it impresses into the jacket.

KKSPs, SPs and Sabre Tips were also available to reloaders. Before about 1986 when the civilian division stopped selling to the public, these were readily available everywhere. They were Canada's go-to cartridges. Hunting cartridges are still produced by IVI - Valcartier Industries - but are not made available to the public. They are issued as military survival cartridges and given to the Cdn Rangers.

They were packaged in boxes of 20 like every other cartridge, but before they went to plastic sleeves which could be worn on the belt, they used cardboard, like in the picture. They got wet and came apart in your pocket in bad weather,

The KKSPs were a good bullet, but like the Remington 788, some folks exaggerated their performance.

Here are some pictures to illustrate.

Yes nice pics. Thank you if i' m not mistaken those 303's must 70's vintage , the almost like foil coated card board boxes with the red oval and cil lettering. The boxes on these 7x57 are a brass color and have the red oval with iVI in there. These also have the yellow 10 rd plastic shell carriers. Do you guys shoot them or are they reduced to collector stuff ? Mb

Some people shoot them. You see Dominion/CIL/Imperial/IVI branded ammunition on collector sites. I am not a collector, so I do not know which particular cartridges are collectibles. They have been out of circulation for a long time, so I suppose if people continue to use them, the ones that remain will only increase in value.

$46.99 per plus tax for Federal blue box . Too much

I load my own, which is also not cheap

I’m saving the KKSP for a special occasion

Dwayne

Fine as frogs hair here , hopefully life is treating you well

Will do , but will have to be tomorrow

All the best
Lorne

My father worked for C.I.L. fir over 30 years, ended up as Shooting Sports Development Manager .
I have used their ammo and components since I started shooting in the mid 60's. Their smallbore match ammo was good, but not as good as the Eley, which they Franchised later on the history of the company.
I have killed many animals with the Saber Tips and KKSP'S in .30 and .311.
Cat

Here is the result of a .311, 215 grain KKSP on a moose calf at over 250 yards, muzzle velocity of 2774 FPS from my Ruger single shot.
Entry

The exit was over 5/8"

Cat

But, but, how is this possible?!? You didn't use a Partition! Or a copperized, monosyllabic penetrator! Did the bullet have fins on it like a '56 Cadillac?

Good shot! The 303 strikes again!

Nothing but sensible design with ballistics in mind !:>)
I do use Barnes 150 TSX'S in my .303 now , but only because my wife found a few bits of lead in the ground meat that we missed one year , otherwise I would still be shooting 180 Saber Tips or 215 KKSP'S
Oh, and that moose went about 10 feet! LOL
Cat

I'm not in Canada, but back in the early '90s, an ammo dealer in Georgia was blowing out large quantities of late production Imperial ammo. I bought a lifetime supply (for me) of .38-55. This stuff is rated at 1600 fps, considerably hotter than the watered down Winchester load. I've killed a couple deer with it, needless to say, it works. I also have one box of Imperial .25/35 Win that I need to put to use on deer.

I think that "sensible design" sums it up well. You and the bullet did the job.


Congratulations on the close out find. Imperial was always a solid choice. It was a sad day when they decided to stop production.

.[/quote]
Imperial was always a solid choice. It was a sad day when they decided to stop production. [/quote]
Yes, sadly, the Amunition division of C.I.L. was not a separate company, but an entity controlled by bean counters who would rather keep sinking money into assets like paint and chemicals than keep promoting advancing the Canadian Shooting Sports .
When they sold the assets to IVI, the main concentration was on military ammo and their civilian stuff suffered .
Cat

As a kid at the Pacific National Exhibition , the Vancouver fair, I picked up some ammo pamphlets . I was impressed by the Imperial brand 303 velocities . Almost 30-06.

Yes. Being businessmen, and seeing how FACs and firearms legislation was going, I guess they jumped ship.


I don't know if all the velocities listed were accurate, but I do know that getting out of ammunition production was a huge loss for us.

The velocities may have been accurate in their pressure guns, and certainly the advertised 150 grain
303 velocity of 2720FPS could be obtained with hand loads, but 3070 FPS with a 175 grain SP out of a 7 mag- even with a 26" barrel??
This is right out of their 1972 pamphlet.
Cat

And you call yourself a Canadian hunter? Just kidding. I pored over those centerfire ammo brochures as a kid, especially those oddball cartridges. Yes, Kling-Kor Soft Point.

Yes, they work.

Interesting thing about those staked bullets, a few times over the years, I have recovered the odd 215 and 180 grain C.I.L. bullet from animals, and when they broke up, the bottom half of the bullet ( just behind the stakes) stayed intact , something lie a Partition, but unlike a Partition which drilled on through , the back half stayed in the critter.
Now, some people would call that a case of bullet failure, but in each case, the animal went down with one bullet and never went past 50m feet.
Cat

Here are a few C.I.L. bullets, a KKSP, Saber Tip, and a CPE ( controlled point expanding)
The Saber Tip precluded the Nosler Ballistic Tip BTW, but I am not sure about the Remington Bronze Point/CPE relationship.
Cat

Just for clarification, I believe the one on the right was called copper point expanding. I shot my first deer at 15 with a long branch number 4 mk1 303 with the 180 gr KKSP.. also my first moose. It was very accurate. particularly with those bullets. around 1 1/2 inch with the peep sight. Others were more like 2 1/2.. Miss those days and hunts.

CAT, if a guy goes back and looks at a Remington catalog from the 60's you will see they also said 175's were 3070 fps in a 7mm mag. Seems to me they all had an agreement on velocities. If a guy sectioned that cpe bullet I'd bet you would find out in hurry it is a Bronze point expanding. mb

Yeah totally correct, dunno why I stated "controlled point"!
Cat

No idea who came out with it first Magnum Bob, I do know there was a dust up with another company that C.I.L. filed a lawsuit with because of their Saber Tip being copied .
One of my dad's colleagues is still living a d he used to work for Remington, I think I will ask him if he can shed some light on that .
C.I.L. never made any firearms, but they did make their own bullets , brass, and powder at one time , so I cannot see them buying bullets from Remington but who knows??
Cat

C.I.L. sold Mauser actioned and Savage rifles. I seem to remember Anschutz 22s . I don't know about the shotguns.

I don't know about the 1960s, but in the past 20 years, different bullet companies have provided product for others.

Savage, Anchutz and Parker Hale used to make rifles which were rebranded to CIL. There were likely others.

I would love to hear from your Dad's colleague about what was going on with Remington and the Sabre Tips. My information is third hand and not reliable. I hate to repeat it here because of the way information gets twisted, but the gist of it was that Remington got some CIL bullets, examined them and came out with their own version - without paying the licensing fees.

Evnin, ya when the first ballistic tips & v max came out I thought of the old imperial sabre tips. Kinda of neat that someone was thinking that way back then. GWP. 🐾👣🐾👣🇨🇦

Nosler in his book said he got the idea for Ballistic Tips from the Canadian Sabre Tips.

C.I.L. sold a lot of rebranded firearms under license.

Zaballa, CBC, Franchi, Anschutz. Savage. Parker Hale were the main ones
Cat

The copper point expanding had a hollow copper tip rather than the solid wedge of the Bronze Point. Quite a thin jacket, but I only saw them in 30-06 and 303 Brit. Only 180 grain. KKSP was a decent bullet, I used them on game in .270 160 gr, 30-30 170 gr, 308 and 30-06 180 grain. Also loaded them in a 300 H&H for a friend. All animals died promptly.

Was just gonna shoot those 160 gr kksp's up but by damn you guys make me wanna go buy some maple syrup for waffles, blended Canadian whiskey and shoot some meat with that ammo and damned if I won't do it. Mb

Magnum Bob;
Good evening once more, I trust the day went well for you overall.

Thanks for the chuckle, I hope that your quest brings you much satisfaction.

While it's un-Canadian of me to admit it, I'm not a huge fan of most pure maple syrups I've tried, but don't mind maple flavoring in thicker syrups.

If you're able to find some, both 40 Creek and Pike Creek blended Canadian whisky can be - well if not good then at least tastes fine to me, taken in moderation with a wee bit of water.

Shooting meat with Canuck made ammo however is a noble windmill to tilt at and I do sincerely wish you the best at that quest.

Thanks for the thread sir, it's been fun.

Best to you.

Dwayne

That was back in the days when we saw more European rifles and ammunition. Prices for Sakos and other quality rifles were generally lower than what you saw in the States.

One of my big mistakes was not bringing back as many rifles as I could afford when I was stationed in Germany. No taxes or import duties. Lots of quality rifles, shotguns and handguns were available dirt cheap through the US and Cdn rod and gun clubs.

Generally speaking, they were 60% cheaper than Cdn retail.

Are you talking about the pneumatic tip?
That had an I indented tip .
All the CPE's I have ever seen and the Bronze Points look identical.

Cat

I have some pneumatics. The CPE does have a hollow copper tip while the Bronze Point tip is solid. In this particular case, Remington was first but the first plastic tips were from CIL (the Sabre Tip). GD

Graydog do you mean hollow as in behind the tip in the body of the bullet itself?
Cat

Cat, I dug out my notes from when I started my armament training in Borden. I found a picture and some information.

The CPE bullets were introduced in the 1920s. 180s were introduced in 1922 and a couple of years later, the 150s were released (1924).

Sabre Tips came out in 1964.

I have this picture showing the guts of the bullets.

Yeah, it was probably 1964 that I saw my first Sabre-Tip and thought they were a pretty cool looking bullet. So it was that I pestered Dad to buy me a box of 150's for my 303. They accounted for a bull elk at about 350 yds. Prior to this, I used CPE's. Later on, I switched to Sierras because I had moved to Idaho and CIL bullets were unavailable. Still, I used some left-over 215 KKSP's for hunting whitetails in timber and they worked great.
By the way, indicative of changing times, I crossed the border on a Greyhound bus in 1965. The Lee Enfield was with my suitcase, in the luggage compartment. In the suitcase, I had my Lee Loader, bullets, primers, some loaded ammo and two pounds of Hi-Vel 2. The border guard was interested in the loading kit. He didn't seem too concerned over a 15 year old kid travelling with his rifle and loading gear. Today, they would just drag me out to the nearest tree and call for a rope! GD

I don't remember the prices, but it seemed to me that the CPEs were more expensive than the KKs. Maybe it was that particular hardware store. When I started reloading, I bought the cheapest bullets I could find. At the time, 224 Remington Core Lokts were about as cheap as a guy could find. Big game bullets though were always CILs. It wasn't until I was 20 maybe that I tried big game bullets other than CILs.

Back then, the only big game rifle I owned was a 303, and thought that 215s were as good as it got. Upon reflection, I probably started with one of the better bullets and used them for about 10 years. Then they went out of business. It's nostalgia I would say, but those KKs always worked - and the Speers that I went to after.

Like you, I miss the uncomplicated way of life. A person cannot live in the past, but in some respects, it was better.

When I had a 7.62 x54r Russian rifle I searched for some of those .311 215 gr kksp for the .312 bore of that old rifle. never did find any.

This thread prompted me to Google Imperial and I ran across this. I had no idea that this cartridge was ever factory loaded. Were commercial rifles actually produced, or was it such a popular wildcat in Canada that there was enough demand for factory ammo?

When I was In Australia some years back,, I bought 4 boxes of Woodleigh .312 215gr bullets. I had to E-mail the sporting good store for them to order them in and I had to fax them my PAL.

SCGunNut;
Good morning to you sir, I trust that this last day of the week is progressing properly in your part of South Carolina and that you and yours are well.

Since you've asked a general question, I'll respond that in a lifetime of fooling with firearms I've handled exactly one Epps made rifle which was built on a commercial FN Mauser action and then handled one .25/303 rifle.

I think it was a .25/303 anyways as I'm attempting to recall the details of it. It was on a very modified No 4 LE action where the rear action socket had been removed, the action reshaped extensively and a hinged floorplate was made or modified to look like it belonged. The whole thing was given a polish and deep, rich blue job and was set in one of the nicest grained fiddleback maple stocks I've looked at.

A buddy had it, purchased from a widow when he agreed to disperse all her late husband's collection and projects as a very talented hobby gunsmith. If memory serves I ended up with at least one rifle and perhaps two, but that detail is lost to me this morning sorry.

Anyways sir, all that to say that in my experience in western Canada, it was not common at all.

The IMI ammo box you've shown could surely be IMI Kynoch which makes sense perhaps? The mentioning of a "single flash hole" suggests to me it's European or British as most Canadian made ammunition had Boxer primers, certainly all the civilian stuff I've found - including the oldest Dominion brass I've run across.

Maybe it was big in New Zealand or Australia?

Sorry I can't help you more.

All the best.

Dwayne

Ahh, seems you are exactly right, here's another picture....made in Australia!




Looks like there were other options as well.







That makes complete sense now as I remember this cartridge in my 40 year old "Cartridges Of The World" book being listed as very popular "Down Under". Still didn't realize it was factory loaded. Cool! Thanx for chiming in!

303/25 ammunition was never produced in Canada. The only way to shoot it here was to have a gunsmith rebarrel a rifle and shooters would reload for it.

The 303/25 was a popular cartridge in Australia where it was designed and built. It was used to harvest kangaroos among other animals. It was produced commercially for years. 22, 6mm cartridges based on the 303 were also done.

There was even a 7.7x54r which was a 303 British, shortened slightly so that it could skirt an Australian law that prohibited civilians from owning 303 rifles.

The Australians are a bunch of smart fellows.

For some insane reason, I want one now. Sort of a .25/35 on steroids.

I know what you mean.

303s were wildcatted in every caliber up to 375. I would like a single shot in 6mm/303 and a 6.5 Epps. I would get Match Grade Machine to make me some, but they need the reamer. It would be very expensive!

Edited to Add: Let's talk about IMI for a bit. IMI started their Australian division in the late 1960s. They were metal fabricators and ammunition manufacturers. The 'single hole' reference on the box told buyers they were getting Boxer primed ammunition that could be reloaded. A lot of ammunition was Berdan primed back then.

If you have any questions about IMI Australia, it's best to check in with the Australian forum. They should be able to answer any questions you might have.