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People now looking at a solar system should spend the time to understand how your state's Public Utility Commission views solar power. The following discussion is about solar systems that are not connected to a battery system. Historically, a customer with a solar system would be on a net metering rate. Under this type of rate, the solar generated power would first go to displace utility power coming to the house. If the system generated more power than the house used, it flowed into the utility system and the customer was paid for that power at the utility's retail rate.

That is now changing. Some utilities, PUC's and social activists are now arguing that such a system benefits the wealthy who can afford solar power. The current move is to change the net metering rate structure to pay the customer a market rate instead of the retail rate. So if your retail rate for power is $.10/kWh and the market rate for power (what the utility would pay in the wholesale power market) is $.03/ kWh the customer would be paid this lower amount. It can dramatically change the economics of a solar system.

Some utilities have moved in this direction and others are being pressured to do so, so it is important to know what you are signing up for and to know how long that rate is likely to be in place

That is true about our local utility company maybe with a bit of a twist. They will offset our usage 1 for 1 until it that is exhausted for the month so in that regards they are buying it back at the retail rate. Any excess is bought back at the wholesale rate which applies to other parts of our utility bill like water, sewer, connection fees, etc... Not a bad deal overall.

No idea where you live, but we have hail fairly regularly. Solar panels are a no go for me.

Scott's post was pretty accurate. My neighbor across the street from me, has twice as many panels than I have. That's because she has lot of shade from the big oak trees near her house. Mine is in the open. And it faces south east.
The deal I have with the state is simply one for one. For every watt I generate, I had one watt back. I do not get money for any extra wattage.
What really works for me is the battery backup system. I have the total capacity of over four Tesla Power Walls. What's more, it does not try to run the whole house. The people I know, who have even two Power Walls, report they only last for a few hours during winter power outages. I've never exhausted mine. E

It would be great to find a book like "Solar for Dummies".

I am seriously considering solar for an off grid metal building (rarely used).

10 panels (@ 350 watts each)? Or 4?

Two 200 batteries... or six... or 10?

I simply don't know the math of needs and truth (so much BS in the industry).

If I use the building 2 days a month... and run 12v lights... But then... what about a refrigerator or microwave... 120v tools?

I know W = A x V, but what about battery % failure and 120v inverter loss.

Just don't know this stuff. Be nice to learn it in a TRUTHFUL MANNER.

Are you using LiFePo4 batteries? What kind of BMS are you running?

I would never allow anybody to screw anything to or through my roof. I just read where some insurance companies are dropping coverage because of the solar panels. Edk

I've heard that fire fighters don't like them because they make it difficult to put holes in the roof if there's a fire.

But I wonder what are the stated reasons for insurance co. dropping coverage. Is it due roof access in a fire, water damage from leaks, or they don't want to cover hail damage or the replacement costs of a system?

In other words, you have lost money. One born every minute.

Please, I’d be interested in seeing your your math, in order to see how bad Burleyboy was taken in. Does it include the average increase in electricity rates?

I just this minute took a look at my energy bill. I did get in under net metering in California, by a few months. My monthly payment is negative $48. My estimated annual true up in October is $25. Historically, my true up in October was as high as $850 at the end of my April billing period. I use a wood stove to decrease my energy costs in the winter, and with our relatively mild climate only use AC for maybe 50 hours a month in the summer. August, September and October are still big generation months. These are just my numbers, yours will vary.

@CashisKing - check out Will Prowse’s videos on DIY Solar, as well as his DIY solar forum: https://diysolarforum.com/

@Dillonbuck - yeah, I’m pretty much in agreement with you, in that the utility of a solar system is highly location dependent. The Pacific Northwest, with low solar hours and cheap electricity, would likely make solar a non-starter. Or so I’d think, but haven’t seen actual numbers.

@Eremicus I have the same question as Steve - which batteries are you using? But as in actual make and voltage and capacity:)

I paid cash for my system so I got a significant discount. I also bought when the tax credits were good so after credits I paid $12,000. My system has a 25 year warranty but I'm not optimistic about getting it honored because the company I bought from has been so terrible. My home and roof were only 2 years old when it was installed so I'm hoping to get more than 10 years out of it. It's made it 3 years so far.

Our power rates have also started to increase. If we go over a certain amount our rates increase from around 10 cents a kwatt to 14.7 cents. Our system typically keeps us out of the 14.7 cent rate so our savings is likely more than $100 per month.

It was a risk when I bought it but if it makes it 12 years it will more than pay for itself. Especially if rates continue to rise. If we unplugged our hottub and got rid of our plug in vehicle our system would probably cover most of our power use. I'm also grandfathered in on our states original net metering rules. For every extra kwatt I generate I get 1 back. I'm glad I did solar when I did because it's not as good of deal now. The net metering is no longer 1:1 and the tax credits aren't as good. Also, the equipment itself has gotten more expensive. If I was considering it today I don't think I'd do it.

When our grid starts going down all the time and we start having rolling blackouts do to democrats policies I'll consider adding battery backup and converting so I can run when the grid is down.

Bb

The problem with a book like Solar for Dummies is in my experience Solar Panels are not steady.
I have 2400 watts of panels in the heat of the summer like right now I only get around 1500 to 1600 watts charging my system and the Charge controller heats up and a fan kicks in to cool it. That takes some of the watts.
Then when you run anything the Inverter heats up and a fan in it kicks in and takes some of the watts away from charging the batteries.
Then I added (2) computer fans to circulate air around my entire system. I installed a green house thermostat switch to turn those on at around 95 to 98 deg. and those fans kick in with the summer heat we are having and take watts away from the system to charge the batteries.

the Charge Controller and Inverter do not work at peak performance with the summer heat so that affects the Batteries and the Batteries do not like the heat and affected with charging.

Then in the winter when you think everything is running great you have to worry about the cold affecting the lithium batteries because when they get below a certain temp. they will not charge or they can blow up on ya.

And with the new Charge Controllers that Charge the Lithium batteries with higher voltage than a normal lead acid battery you have to run you Panels in series and parallel with a combiner box before the power gets to the Controller. and due to this the Panels do not start charging the system until they can build up a minimum of voltage for the Controller to recognize that there is something there to give to the Batteries.

I am just a shmo and I am self taught with some help from the Pro's to set up the commands on my system.

Long past are the days that you can just hook up 12V Panels to a simple Charge Controller directly to your 12 V batteries and then hook up that simple 12 V Inverter and have power.

The Industry has crapped up everything so bad that you need some serious help from someone that knows what they are doing to get things set up right.

I have set up several systems for my self over the past 15+ years.
Each one getting more and more complex and needing more and more help to get things right.

If they would just go back to the simple stuff and forget all of this high tech crap a Solars for Dummy's would be a great idea.

They will never make stuff stay simple for the every day Joe to be able to do for them selves.

I forgot to add that my system is designed so that I can add (stack) up to (6) 30amp 240V Inverters giving me 180Amp of 240V and up to (6) Charge Controller with a 6600 watt capacity each to charge the Batteries for a grand total of 39600 watts.

Of coarse it probably take a Computer genius to program the system for what is the Master Controller and what is the Master Inverter over the Slaves.
But then that gets us into the Racist crap where we may have people telling us we can not have Slaves.

Right now I only have (1) Inverter and (1) Charge Controller with (8) 200amp hr Lithium Batteries

Thanks for typing all that up... Sincerely.

It is exactly the WTF I am trying to figure out.

As stated
I have built several systems for my self
each one I feel as if I am starting over with knowledge and feel that I have learned nothing from the systems before.

The same way I feel about Computers.
I use to be able to do a lot of stuff with them and now I am just a user and do not try and get into the deep parts anymore.

i am currently brain storming a small system to rum heat tape to keep the water pipes from freezing when I am not up on my place in Arizona.

This small system with all the new confusing technology is hurting my brain a bit.
The system I mentioned above is a portable system.
I can transport it from place to place like a portable generator. That way when Code Enforcement trys to get me for any violations I can ask them if a portable generator needs a permit or inspection.
If not then why does my portable solar system need a permit or inspection

OK... Help me design it.

This building is a about 2.5 miles (my road) from the last public road/power.

It will have R-7 to R-10 closed cell spray foam (wall/ceilings) to keep the interior very "reasonable". Inside will have a 10' x 16' "Bunk House" (R-13/R-19 or better) walls/ceiling.

Elevation is about 3k in very rural WV. 95% of the time the building will be unoccupied... but a day or three a month I will work there. A 2500 watt gen would take care of my needs... If I need more power (welding etc.) I would slave a second gen.

HOWEVER... having solar to run lights and cameras/comms year round would be the goal.

6 panels @ 350s watts each would charge a bank of batteries for the lights/cameras/comms... and give me some reserve for occupancy of the bunk house (working/hunting seasons etc.) without having to run a gen/gens.

Temps inside will be above freezing most probably. Temps inside the Bunk House will be absolutely above freezing with proper insulation and a tiny amount of heat (100w light bulb kinda thing). Seasonal wood stove as well.

Extra girts on the roof trusses will carry PLENTY of load. Roof leaks are not a concern (I know how to mitigate this easily).

Solar orientation is good. Tall trees are being removed for sun and fire reasons.

Budget $5k+/-

Cash you’ll want to start with an energy audit which is a calc of all the appliances and so forth that you’ll use throughout the day, how much power they consume, and how long you’ll run them. That will determine how big your system should be. There are calculators all over the inter web to help. Once you’ve determined the size system you need the rest is fairly simple. You can get reasonably priced panels from Santan solar if you don’t mind used and companies like currentconnected can help you set up a DIY system to do what you want.

That comment is a total wild card.

What electrical sorta devices are going to be plugged in the 'bunkhouse'?

I could take pictures and tell ya all about the solar power I hooked up yesterday afternoon in a powerless two bed two bath home that has about 20 led can lights in the ceiling.

All the lights are running at the same time with power left over for charging a phone and a laptop.

The system consists of two ancient solar panels, ones a 65 watt and its been in use about half of its 25 year old life.
The other mismatched panel is 85 watts and about 15 years of age.

Tied them to a matched pair of 3 year old 100 ah flooded lead acid deep cycle batteries via 30 amp solar controller.

Now let every mf'er that never touched a solar panel in their life chime in and tell you why that shouldn't work.

Will the batteries support those 20 led lamps 24/7 ?

No, but I just need them for a few hours in the evenings.

Will those batteries keep my dinky little 600 watt inverter running after 3 days of no sun.

Nope, that's where the little Honda Inverter generator comes into play that is currently running a 5000 btu AC unit about 4 hours every afternoon.

Have fun, good luck but your question would be better responded to and a solar power forum.

One other thing to consider up front is if you'll need 220v for any tools well pump, hot water heater etc. I'd start with a 48v system outa the gate. You'll very quickly outgrow a 12v system and have to start over. You can run 24v, but everything is harder to come by and 48v is a lot more viable these days for an offgrid system. You can build a small 48v system and grow it in the future to cover all the stuff you didn't consider up front.

Mtnman1 and JeffA...

I am absolutely tracking on how little I know about this stuff. I am also tracking on the ignorance of my questions.

With that said... I am not a fool and am hoping for real world knowledge (vs. the mountainous amounts of BULLCHIT I find on the Web)... i.e. I had NO IDEA about used/blemmed panels from Santan etc.

As for the load... I get that also. Gotta know a load... OR CARRY A GENERATOR or TWO.

12v LEDs are cheap as dirt and loose nothing to an inverter. They take very little power to function when I need them occasionally.

Run a refrigerator or a microwave? Probably need an power inverter... Cameras and comms... same. Inverters 90% efficient? Refrigerator is 400 watts (only used when I am there 2-3 days).

Cameras and Comms will be a 24/7/365 load...

I guess the load is and will remain unknown... Make what I can make with 6 panels @ 350s watts each would charge a bank of batteries.

How much storage is this? Rolling average maybe the best guess? 365 days on daylight... with an de-rated average of 7 hours per day x 2,100 watts per hour @ 12v storage would bank me 1,225 amps per day. That is 6 200Ah batteries

Assuming no thermal loss... I could hold and store enough amps to run a table saw/miter saw for a few hours I reckon.

If I run out of juice... I fire up a gas inverter gen. or two... surplus gen power runs a battery charger?

Cameras/comms will be a constraint draw... 100 watts? 300 watts?

Batteries are rated to 50%... 80%... this is the kinda stuff that is very unknown to me.

I have zero knowledge on a Solar Controller... what they do and how they work.

Thanks for any help.

Cash, Look at Eufy cameras. They're wireless and rechargeable. Some are solar recharging. Motion detection, two way voice communication. No need for paid subscription as well. Storage of vids is local.

You'll need wifi, though.