Something I asked about earlier. Wouldn't having a small base die made solve the issue?
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
For those that are interested, this may solve your problem.
"Our expander mandrel dies size the base of the case the same way your Full Length sizing die would. This helps align the case with the mandrel and also helps reduce “clickers” as brass ages."
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
Something I asked about earlier. Wouldn't having a small base die made solve the issue?
Give Alex Wheeler a call.
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
My advice to anyone on here who believes this is a problem talk to your smithh about what reamer he is using and especially you guys who do pre-fits. That should be the #1 question you should be asking is about the reamer being used on any pre-fit or build not only on the PRC's but even if the proper freebore for bullet and Neck clearance for brass you wanna use. Charlie we are gonna agree to disagree, everbody good luck on your future builds
You are disagreeing with the wrong person. Charlie is not only an excellent gun builder, he also has pressure testing equipment and is proficient in its use.
Anecdotes, analogies and the "Do you pressure testing equipment" trump card call out aren't advancing the conversation. The current thinking is the SAAMI PRC chamber specs are too tight for the use cases of a significant portion of the shooing community. My experience and testing have led me to the same conclusion, sans actual pressure testing equipment. I expect, but not 100% certain, opening my chamber up a bit with the AW reamer will solve my Lapua brass clicker problem.
In case anyone is wondering...
Hornady factory 143 ELD-x Precision Hunter - no clicker Hornady once fired brass 143 ELD-X with X amount of H1000 at 2925 fps - no clicker Hornady twice fired brass 143 ELD-X with X amount of H1000 at 2925 fps - no clicker
Lapua virgin 143 ELD-X with X minus Y amount of H1000 at 2925 fps - no clicker Lapua once fired ELD-X with X minus Y amount of H1000 at 2925 fps - CLICKER
Pressure equivalence inferred by velocity agreement. All reloading processes the same.
My advice to anyone on here who believes this is a problem talk to your smithh about what reamer he is using and especially you guys who do pre-fits. That should be the #1 question you should be asking is about the reamer being used on any pre-fit or build not only on the PRC's but even if the proper freebore for bullet and Neck clearance for brass you wanna use. Charlie we are gonna agree to disagree, everbody good luck on your future builds
You are disagreeing with the wrong person. Charlie is not only an excellent gun builder, he also has pressure testing equipment and is proficient in its use.
Am I? Call up Alex Wheeler or Eric Cortina and a host of other good smiths tell them there ignorant to this. Look tell me I'm wrong whatever you want to do I DONT CARE, do as you please
I use this die for 2 cartridges that i seem to always get clickers. The die works great to eliminate clickers. Yes, it's an expander mandrel die however, this die also sizes the base of the brass. It's explained in the video
Last edited by Trystan; 10/05/23.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
I watched his interview with Eric Cortina...my gut tells me that he probably doesn't have a lot of time to chat...although he does live just up the road....
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
Something I asked about earlier. Wouldn't having a small base die made solve the issue?
If you can size the brass down to smaller than new have at it. Let's say just for [bleep] and giggles Alex and these others are right what is it gonna hurt to use the AW2 reamer JUST IN CASE? ask yourself that question.
I watched his interview with Eric Cortina...my gut tells me that he probably doesn't have a lot of time to chat...although he does live just up the road....
Email Alex he will answer or go over to accurateshooter or LRO and p.m him he will answer p.ms atleast he has mine. All you have to do is go to Accurateshooter and the other sites there is an extensive thread on there were he talks about all the money and expense he has put into this. He released his reamer prints in Nov 2020 so its been out there for nearly 3 years. In the beginning alot of people spent alot of money on dies thinking it would solve the problem and it didn't untill the back of the chamber was opened up. This is not the only cartridge that has had this " phenomenon " over time in my previous thread i named 2 others 3 if you include my 30-28
A die with a smaller diameter at the base will definitely help. And anything to keep the brass aligned better during resizing will help. And a slightly larger chamber will help. And a chamber cut perfectly round will really help. And a die cut perfectly round will really help. And a die aligned correctly in the press will help. And brass with correct metallurgy will help. And limiting pressure to 65000 or so will help. Has anyone checked the rim thickness on this brass ? I got some Lapua 6.5x55 that was so thick the bolt would barely close with the extractor on place. I threw it away.
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
I watched his interview with Eric Cortina...my gut tells me that he probably doesn't have a lot of time to chat...although he does live just up the road....
Email Alex he will answer or go over to accurateshooter or LRO and p.m him he will answer p.ms atleast he has mine. All you have to do is go to Accurateshooter and the other sites there is an extensive thread on there were he talks about all the money and expense he has put into this. He released his reamer prints in Nov 2020 so its been out there for nearly 3 years. In the beginning alot of people spent alot of money on dies thinking it would solve the problem and it didn't untill the back of the chamber was opened up. This is not the only cartridge that has had this " phenomenon " over time in my previous thread i named 2 others 3 if you include my 30-28
Exactly. Or we could listen to folks that hadn't ever heard it was a problem until now because they talked to eight customers.
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
I tried to make a small base die like Butch Lambert mentioned many posts back for my 30-28 out of a Redding 28 nos die when I first started having clickers and all it did was crack
If opening up the 200 line solves the problem, it isn't exceeding maximum pressure. Strange though, I'm around a grain below max load in my rifle that experiences clickers.
I don't own a PRC or have plans to buy one so I don't have a horse in this race, just clarifying terms for the sake of the discussion. By max pressure, do you mean max SAAMI pressure or max pressure based on "traditional" pressure signs? Same with loading "a grain below max", do you mean a grain below book max or a grain below max based on pressure signs i.e. sticky bolt lift, ejector swipes, etc? ....carry on fellas, interesting discussion.
It doesn't matter what you spend on your builds. All that matters is whether or not you'll get $1500 in benefit from buying a complete Pressure Trace system.
It matters partly because the Pressure Trace 2 costs around $750--NOT $1500.
Aside from that, I have not only spent plenty of time with Charlie doing various experiments with his PT system--and have also spent plenty of time in various piezo labs, much of it experimenting with various loads. Did an article years ago for Handloader after spending a full day testing various loads in four cartridges, firing cartridges worked up with so-called "pressure signs," and some that stuck to pressure-tested data.
It turned out the most consistent pressure sign was difficult extraction. (Primers, for example, can become "flat" at SAAMI pressures, or even slightly lower, due to a little extra headspace. But difficult extraction usually doesn't show up at less than around 70,000 PSI, and sometimes even considerably more. (Which is why velocities of the 7mm STW were considerably lower when it became a commercial than the handloads my old friend Layne Simpson worked up when developing it as a wildcat, sometimes by more than 200 fps.)
All of which is why when Charlie and I developed our wildcat, the 9.3 Barsness-Sisk, we tested the pressures of our loads, which ended in the .30-06 range--and the '06 has a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 60,000 PSI, 5000 PSI less than the most SAAMI allows for any round.
Another little factoid is the reason SAAMI does this is because heat can really affect pressure, even in the modern pressure-resistant powders--whether the heat is ambient air temperature or from a hot barrel.
I have also done considerable testing of that, along with my cold-tests with such powders. They are far between at maintaining the same temperature from 70 F. down to around zero than they are at resisting heat--though they're still better in heat than older powders.
It seem reasonable to me that somebody who's spending considerable money on building a number rifles, whether just for the parts or for somebody else to put them together, would consider $750 a reasonable investment. But then I also know people who've been handloading for decades who apparently don't think they can afford a $150 chronograph, which can also be used for estimating pressure--and far more accurately than by "pressure signs."
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Have I Pierced a primer sure I did once, about 20 years ago because I used a 6.5 rem primer in a 222 Rem mag lessen learned dont use a 6.5 Primer only 7.5. Have I had some extractor swipes on some cases for a cartridge I was loading for sure I have. Answer, stop and back off the charge. Answer me this what is it gonna hurt to use a AW2 reamer on a PRC cartridge " just" in case? Do different reamers and barrels show different pressures? I have never felt ive ran into a situation were I felt I was in danger of blowing up a rifle. I think ya need to take up the argument with the designer not the messenger I put the info out there its your to use or not.
It doesn't matter what you spend on your builds. All that matters is whether or not you'll get $1500 in benefit from buying a complete Pressure Trace system.
It matters partly because the Pressure Trace 2 costs around $750--NOT $1500.
Aside from that, I have not only spent plenty of time with Charlie doing various experiments with his PT system--and have also spent plenty of time in various piezo labs, much of it experimenting with various loads. Did an article years ago for Handloader after spending a full day testing various loads in four cartridges, firing cartridges worked up with so-called "pressure signs," and some that stuck to pressure-tested data.
It turned out the most consistent pressure sign was difficult extraction. (Primers, for example, can become "flat" at SAAMI pressures, or even slightly lower, due to a little extra headspace. But difficult extraction usually doesn't show up at less than around 70,000 PSI, and sometimes even considerably more. (Which is why velocities of the 7mm STW were considerably lower when it became a commercial than the handloads my old friend Layne Simpson worked up when developing it as a wildcat, sometimes by more than 200 fps.)
All of which is why when Charlie and I developed our wildcat, the 9.3 Barsness-Sisk, we tested the pressures of our loads, which ended in the .30-06 range--and the '06 has a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 60,000 PSI, 5000 PSI less than the most SAAMI allows for any round.
Another little factoid is the reason SAAMI does this is because heat can really affect pressure, even in the modern pressure-resistant powders--whether the heat is ambient air temperature or from a hot barrel.
I have also done considerable testing of that, along with my cold-tests with such powders. They are far between at maintaining the same temperature from 70 F. down to around zero than they are at resisting heat--though they're still better in heat than older powders.
It seem reasonable to me that somebody who's spending considerable money on building a number rifles, whether just for the parts or for somebody else to put them together, would consider $750 a reasonable investment. But then I also know people who've been handloading for decades who apparently don't think they can afford a $150 chronograph, which can also be used for estimating pressure--and far more accurately than by "pressure signs."
I was under then impression it was $800 and then a couple hundred bucks for the strain gages, and you had to have a portable computer that can be taken to the range. Spending $1500 is probably a low estimate. They don't have cell phone apps. Additionally, those that I know in the know state that it is relative because calibration is not great from unit to unit and you're not going to get the accuracy with a lab-grade system like my friend uses in one of the major manufacturing facilities. He compares the PT system to chronographs from the 90s and early 2000s. For the investment in the system, you get a relative number, I suppose so you'd have an idea of changes before you approached easily identifiable changes in pressure. Unfortunately, a 5% error in calibration and the "safe" 64000 is actually 67,000. Maybe this doesn't show up on brass, either. What did the system really do for you?
The point stands that difficult extraction is not the issue here and it does not occur in a single firing of a piece of brass.
Last edited by drop_point; 10/05/23.
"Full time night woman? I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart. I packed me a squaw for ten year, Pilgrim. Cheyenne, she were, and the meanest bitch that ever balled for beads."
To circle back to the original point of this thread, which is tight spec'd SAAMI PRC chambers causing clickers in reloads. Obviously high pressure can/will cause clickers (i.e., sticky extraction), but that's NOT the issue here. Rather, how to eliminate the PRC clickers (i.e., false indicators of high pressure in this case) in reasonable handholds.
To circle back to the original point of this thread, which is tight spec'd SAAMI PRC chambers causing clickers in reloads. Obviously high pressure can/will cause clickers (i.e., sticky extraction), but that's NOT the issue here. Rather, how to eliminate the PRC clickers (i.e., false indicators of high pressure in this case) in reasonable handholds.
I agree 100% its why I ask the question what is it gonna hurt to use the AW2 reamer " just in case" Crickets!!
To circle back to the original point of this thread, which is tight spec'd SAAMI PRC chambers causing clickers in reloads. Obviously high pressure can/will cause clickers (i.e., sticky extraction), but that's NOT the issue here. Rather, how to eliminate the PRC clickers (i.e., false indicators of high pressure in this case) in reasonable handholds.
I agree 100% its why I ask the question what is it gonna hurt to use the AW2 reamer " just in case" Crickets!!
Personally, I think that's the exact right thing to do. I just can't say definitively it works because my testing isn't finished yet.
