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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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He proved how petty he could be in the "Choose your expert" chapter. Even slandered Fred Bear and of course he took cheapshots at Uncle Elmer I never noticed him mentioning about Fred Bear in that chapter, and just read it again twice. Could you point me where he did? I also have owned a copy of Elmer's book Safari, about the first of his two safaris, and agree with O'Connor on all points. Elmer brought as his "light" rifle a .333 OKH with handloaded Kynoch 300-grain solids and "softs", which he'd apparently never used before on anything, whether game or some sort of test media. Among other failures the softs blew up so badly that one failed to exit a Thompson's gazelle about the size of a coyote, so Elmer ended up using the round-nosed solids for the rest of the safari--which generally don't (and didn't then) kill plains game very well unless hit in the some part of the central nervous system. From this he concluded that "all African game is as tough as an old gum boot" and requires even bigger cartridges. At that time (1958) the Nosler Partition had been around for a decade, and his results would have been fine with a .30-06 and 180 Partitions. I know this from killing a bunch of African plains game with that combination. But whatever....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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He proved how petty he could be in the "Choose your expert" chapter. Even slandered Fred Bear and of course he took cheapshots at Uncle Elmer I never noticed him mentioning about Fred Bear in that chapter, and just read it again twice. Could you point me where he did? I also have owned a copy of Elmer's book Safari, and agree with O'Connor on all points. Elmer brought as his "light" rifle a .333 OKH with handloaded Kynoch 300-grain solids and "softs", which he'd apparently never used before on anything, whether game or some sort of test media. Among other failures the softs blew up so badly one failed to exit a Thompson's gazelle about the size of a coyote, so Elmer ended up using the round-nosed solids for the rest of the safari--which generally don't (and didn't) kill plains game very well unless hit in the some part of the central nervous system. From this he concluded that "all African game is as tough as an old gum boot" and requires even bigger cartridges. At that time (1958) the Nosler Partition had been around for a decade, and his results would have been fine with a .30-06 and 180 Partitions. I know this from killing a bunch of African plains game with that combination. But whatever.... Exactly, Elmer was full of it on some things. Just like when he claimed that a 7X57 wasn't adequate for muke deer.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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He proved how petty he could be in the "Choose your expert" chapter. Even slandered Fred Bear and of course he took cheapshots at Uncle Elmer I never noticed him mentioning about Fred Bear in that chapter, and just read it again twice. Could you point me where he did? I also have owned a copy of Elmer's book Safari, about the first of his two safaris, and agree with O'Connor on all points. Elmer brought as his "light" rifle a .333 OKH with handloaded Kynoch 300-grain solids and "softs", which he'd apparently never used before on anything, whether game or some sort of test media. Among other failures the softs blew up so badly that one failed to exit a Thompson's gazelle about the size of a coyote, so Elmer ended up using the round-nosed solids for the rest of the safari--which generally don't (and didn't then) kill plains game very well unless hit in the some part of the central nervous system. From this he concluded that "all African game is as tough as an old gum boot" and requires even bigger cartridges. At that time (1958) the Nosler Partition had been around for a decade, and his results would have been fine with a .30-06 and 180 Partitions. I know this from killing a bunch of African plains game with that combination. But whatever.... As you know when you're not being facetious, he didn't mention anybody by name in his hit piece chapter. But there was only one nationally prominent bow hunter in the 1960's that people really knew. And when we had a thread here on this subject some years back BobinNH said it was definitely Fred Bear. And you didn't argue with him
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I have a copy of the The Hunting Rifle book. I have read book that many times and the chapters on the 3006 and 7x57 are my favorites.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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He proved how petty he could be in the "Choose your expert" chapter. Even slandered Fred Bear and of course he took cheapshots at Uncle Elmer As you know when you're not being facetious, he didn't mention anybody by name in his hit piece chapter. But there was only one nationally prominent bow hunter in the 1960's that people really knew. And when we had a thread here on this subject some years back BobinNH said it was definitely Fred Bear. And you didn't argue with him Yes, I know O'Connor never mentioned anybody's in "Picking Your Expert." I just reread it again the third time in two days, trying to find the reference to a "prominent bow hunter" and could not. Maybe it was in a different edition? My copy is is the second edition, printed in 1975.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JOC was a gifted and excellent writer. A master story teller who could paint a word picture that placed the reader on site with him. He was a very good rifle shot and a much better than average hunter.
As in the case of many self-made successful men who had a tough start in life he was acerbic and suffered fools poorly. Not uncommon among intelligent people when engaged in conflict in their area of expertise.
Elmer Keith was clearly knowledgeable in the practical use of guns - especially revolvers - as tools in the traditional frontier life he led. His ability to write clearly and create imagery was not his gift. Not being a particularly good writer doesn’t negate his personal experience with revolvers. I never thought his opinions about rifles denoted technical expertise because he seemed to value his personal experience to such a great degree that he engaged in significant confirmatory bias.
Whether the Keith-O’Connor feud was as personally intense as portrayed I can’t say as I didn’t know either man personally but it was clearly based on very different philosophies about rifles and approach to their use in hunting. Their conflict was clearly advantageous to both in promoting their public personas and writing careers so they fueled it.
I have always thought JOC brought a more reasoned, logically persuasive and modern approach to the positions he espoused about rifles and cartridge selection for hunting. His strength was the ability to present otherwise dry technical content in a style which engaged average rifle hunters and shooters.
I have read his books since I was quite young and learned quite a bit from JOC which has proven useful and shaping my initial opinions and biases about rifles and cartridges. He was a memorable writer and imperfect as are we all. After reading H&BW, I didn't get the impression that JOC had a very tough start in life. JOC portrayed his maternal Grandfather as being quite well off and that was the household that he grew up in. In order to escape Tempe's summer heat, his family spent their summers on the California coast. JOC did come from a broken home, something that he blamed on his Father, Mother, and maternal Grandmother. JOC earned both baccalaureate and masters degrees at a time when the number of college graduates was much lower than it has been since the end of WW2.
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M721
I completely agree. Very few could tell a story as well as he. As far as technical information is concerned, most if not all of what he said is better than the crap being written today about the latest and greatest (and most grotesque) soldier wannbe gun. My opinion-unsolicited and completely biased- is that O'Connor was and is the best gun writer ever; JB is the only modern writer that approaches him.
Show class, have pride, and display character. If you do, winning will take care of itself.
Coach Bryant.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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After reading H&BW, I didn't get the impression that JOC had a very tough start in life. JOC portrayed his maternal Grandfather as being quite well off and that was the household that he grew up in. In order to escape Tempe's summer heat, his family spent their summers on the California coast. JOC did come from a broken home, something that he blamed on his Father, Mother, and maternal Grandmother. JOC earned both baccalaureate and masters degrees at a time when the number of college graduates was much lower than it has been since the end of WW2. Living in a tent with his sister and mother after the divorce for a year or two, while his mother tried to continue teaching school to make ends meet wasn't tough for a young kid? At that time his grandfather apparently wasn't as well off as later on....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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After reading H&BW, I didn't get the impression that JOC had a very tough start in life. JOC portrayed his maternal Grandfather as being quite well off and that was the household that he grew up in. In order to escape Tempe's summer heat, his family spent their summers on the California coast. JOC did come from a broken home, something that he blamed on his Father, Mother, and maternal Grandmother. JOC earned both baccalaureate and masters degrees at a time when the number of college graduates was much lower than it has been since the end of WW2. Living in a tent with his sister and mother after the divorce for a year or two, while his mother tried to continue teaching school to make ends meet wasn't tough for a young kid? At that time his grandfather apparently wasn't as well off as later on.... MD, you have to forgive 260Rem. He can't even figure out where the voting booth is.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I doubt JO'C's editors had to labor very much when prepping his writings for publication. Other writings of that time period leave me with the sense that editors labored hard to translate the raw material that they were presented with and it shows in the finished works. Keith's stories come to mind immediately as an example, but he wasn't alone in that regard.
50+ years ago I came away with that gut feeling regarding those two writers (but couldn't then verbalize it), and I still find myself judging gun writers that way, including the maunderings "published" on the internet by everyman. Good solid information often has to be choked down due to poor grammar which clouds presentation. Thanks be to the internet which enables anyone with a digital device and at least one typing finger to put ideas forth to the whole world to read - the most revolutionary communication tool since the Gutenberg press, but the most glaring spotlight on the failings of our school systems in teaching basic grammar (and failure of students to learn - it is after all a two-way street).
The published works on gunnery that we absorbed as kids were presented to us by professionals who filtered out grammatical errors and polished the syntax. Lacking that, I bet readers of Elmer Keith would've thrown their hands up in despair and quickly lost interest in the messages he conveyed. Cactus Jack's unedited stuff would've captivated us regardless of a lack of editing. Therein lies his appeal, conscious or subconscious, to those of us who thrive(d) on his writing. At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I think our own JB's writing exhibits the same traits, and I've caught glimmers of why that is from his description of his father's influence.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I don’t know what it is about JOC, but his writing really appealed to me (as it clearly did for thousands of others of my generation) and I think I’ve acquired nearly all the major works that came from his mind and typewriter. Oddly enough, a non-firearms book, Horse and Buggy West has become a real favorite. You might also really like The Last Book, Confessions of a Gun Editor, published after he passed away--because that's the way he wanted it. It's the story of his life in the gun-writing business--with nothing held back.... I've read a few comments about Jack not holding anything back in The Last Book but I honestly didn't think he got close to doing that myself. It did show he reserved some things when he was working for Outdoor Life and mentioned them in the book later but he could have told more and I'm sure there was plenty of details he did leave out. What I admire the most is that he lived, worked and hunted in what to me was the golden age of hunting and shooting. To this day if I pick up a magazine and Jack has an article in it, whether and old copy or a reprint in a new addition of some sort I read it first. And yes I have a copy of The Hunting Rifle and several others of his. I was fortunate enough as a kid to have several of Jack's books given to me.
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Read somewhere I don’t recall that the banker grandfather lost just about everything in a bank panic
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Campfire Tracker
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My father's copy of The Hunting Rifle was the first gun book I can remember reading, at about age 10 or 11. Soon after that I read dad's copy of Sixguns by Keith. I found the differences between the two men notable but enjoyed and learned from both, and it's been that way ever since. So much so that when I moved out on my own I very quickly acquired these books for myself, along with my own reloading gear. I recall fondly that by age 12 I'd decided a man must have a .270 and a .44 special or life just wouldn't be complete!
I regret that it wasn't until much later in life that I discovered Francis Sell, as his hunting and writing lines up with my own experiences and hunting style very well, and he was a good writer. It's interesting to me how these guys sniped at each other just a bit. In the portion of American Deer Hunter where Sell discusses the shooting of running game he disparages an unnamed writer who spoke of killing deer on the run at long range. He had to be referring to O'Connor. While my experience makes me agree with Sell's techniques and perspective about woods shooting, I also think old Jack knew what he was talking about given all the practical experience he had practicing on jackrabbits.
We see this sort of interaction on here all the time, playing out rapid-fire, minute by minute. Dudes argue over dumb stuff based on their specific interest or experiences convinced they're right and the other guy is wrong when really, both sides are kinda right with both parties being idiotic trying to apply their interest or experience way too broadly.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yep, on both counts!
I enjoy reading Elmer too, one reason I have all his books. Especially enjoy Hell, I Was There!, I suspect partly because he dictated it instead of writing it, which makes it read smoother than some of his other stuff.
But I also learned to shoot running game by shooting lots of jackrabbits, after reading O'Connor, a skill that's remained with me over the years.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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After reading H&BW, I didn't get the impression that JOC had a very tough start in life. JOC portrayed his maternal Grandfather as being quite well off and that was the household that he grew up in. In order to escape Tempe's summer heat, his family spent their summers on the California coast. JOC did come from a broken home, something that he blamed on his Father, Mother, and maternal Grandmother. JOC earned both baccalaureate and masters degrees at a time when the number of college graduates was much lower than it has been since the end of WW2. Living in a tent with his sister and mother after the divorce for a year or two, while his mother tried to continue teaching school to make ends meet wasn't tough for a young kid? At that time his grandfather apparently wasn't as well off as later on.... MD, you have to forgive 260Rem. He can't even figure out where the voting booth is. I voted for all of the relevant candidates on my 2020 ballot except for POTUS. i didn't feel that either candidate for POTUS was worthy of holding the office, so I voted my conscience by not voting for either of them. If DJT and JRB, Jr. are the candidates for POTUS in 2024 they will receive the same level of support from me.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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After reading H&BW, I didn't get the impression that JOC had a very tough start in life. JOC portrayed his maternal Grandfather as being quite well off and that was the household that he grew up in. In order to escape Tempe's summer heat, his family spent their summers on the California coast. JOC did come from a broken home, something that he blamed on his Father, Mother, and maternal Grandmother. JOC earned both baccalaureate and masters degrees at a time when the number of college graduates was much lower than it has been since the end of WW2. Living in a tent with his sister and mother after the divorce for a year or two, while his mother tried to continue teaching school to make ends meet wasn't tough for a young kid? At that time his grandfather apparently wasn't as well off as later on.... I don't recall the specifics about living in a tent, but I recall that JOC had hoped to inherit a expensive English shotgun from one of the big name gun houses, maybe Purdy, from his Grandfather and that his Grandfather built a large house on an entire city block that he owned. I don't recall all of events that JOC wrote about in H&BW, just bits and pieces, but I haven't reread H&BW for several years.
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Thanks for sharing these excerpts. "Santiago and the Lady," an article written by O'Connor, is some of the finest writing one will read anywhere.
If ifs and buts were like candy and nuts, it would be Christmas every day.
“The .30-06 is never a mistake.” - Col. Townsend Whelan
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Campfire Regular
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He proved how petty he could be in the "Choose your expert" chapter. Even slandered Fred Bear and of course he took cheapshots at Uncle Elmer I never noticed him mentioning about Fred Bear in that chapter, and just read it again twice. Could you point me where he did? I also have owned a copy of Elmer's book Safari, about the first of his two safaris, and agree with O'Connor on all points. Elmer brought as his "light" rifle a .333 OKH with handloaded Kynoch 300-grain solids and "softs", which he'd apparently never used before on anything, whether game or some sort of test media. Among other failures the softs blew up so badly that one failed to exit a Thompson's gazelle about the size of a coyote, so Elmer ended up using the round-nosed solids for the rest of the safari--which generally don't (and didn't then) kill plains game very well unless hit in the some part of the central nervous system. From this he concluded that "all African game is as tough as an old gum boot" and requires even bigger cartridges. At that time (1958) the Nosler Partition had been around for a decade, and his results would have been fine with a .30-06 and 180 Partitions. I know this from killing a bunch of African plains game with that combination. But whatever.... Inreresting that Keith didn't use partitions more than he did. In an article in the July 1963 G & A titled "Big Game Bullets," he praises them as "some of the best bullets extant for high velocity rifles with two cavities for the core in the jacket." His criticism was the front half disintegrating as only "the solid jacketed rear half carries on through the animal." Perhaps he wanted the front half to merely mushroom a bit?
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
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There's considerable evidence that Elmer never really "got" the Partition concept, especially in the two-volume collection of his Guns & Ammo columns. As an example, he thought the .338 Partition should have weighed 300 grains, not 250.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I have those two books and will look and see what he said. I don't think he could make himself use a bullet designed to lose the front half, even if it was engineered that way and worked well. Or, he might have thought they were too expensive. I'm occasionally guilty of false economies as are most of us, and I think Elmer's early years made him a bit frugal.
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