|
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390 |
My son is looking at getting his first custom rifle put together. This will be his "do-all" rifle for some time moose, elk, deer, bear, antelope.
Mine are built on Defiance actions, but I have no experience with them post buy out so what else is good? Looking for the following:
1. 30 caliber magnum
2. Sub 7 pound bare rifle
3. 22-24" barrel
4. Magazine capacity of 3 or more
What can be done? I know what I would do, but I'd like to see some ideas that I wouldn't have thought of. Might be obvious but a lot of gunsmiths will chamber the barrel with the full length shank still on...which usually adds about 1/2 lb to the barrel weight. So maybe be sure to tell the builder to cut the shank as short as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,368 Likes: 13
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,368 Likes: 13 |
My son is looking at getting his first custom rifle put together. This will be his "do-all" rifle for some time moose, elk, deer, bear, antelope.
Mine are built on Defiance actions, but I have no experience with them post buy out so what else is good? Looking for the following:
1. 30 caliber magnum
2. Sub 7 pound bare rifle
3. 22-24" barrel
4. Magazine capacity of 3 or more
What can be done? I know what I would do, but I'd like to see some ideas that I wouldn't have thought of. Might be obvious but a lot of gunsmiths will chamber the barrel with the full length shank still on...which usually adds about 1/2 lb to the barrel weight. So maybe be sure to tell the builder to cut the shank as short as possible. Exactly, I ask for a Fwt style shank myself these days. I don't need all the extra meat on that bone.
Semper Fi
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
Appreciate all the thoughts. I have an excellent local smith that I trust a great deal. I have a 1200 yard range that I shoot from my front porch. The rifle will be used to shoot big game from as close to point blank as possible out to wherever he feels comfortable. I have taken game out to 860 yards with mine. The ability to do so completely changes the game in open country. We reload and aren't beginners, which is seldom evident when someone asks a question on the internet. I'm looking for ideas I haven't considered.
My thoughts are a carbon fiber AG Composite stock, PTG AICS detachable 5 round flush fit, 22-24" Proof Sendero, Bix n Andy trigger, on a Defiance Classic. Not sure on chambering. Looking at the 300 SAUM. I have a similar rifle in 7 SAUM and I'm a fan, but only 2 fit in the belly with BDL bottom. This rifle is a pussycat with 180s at 2800fps. My biggest conundrum is what the best 30 caliber magnum chambering is going to be. All of my long range rifles have a break and recoil very little. We also shoot suppressed and prefer a shorter barrel so they handle better.
So, with more information, what am I missing? 300 SAUM or go long action and try the 300 PRC? What is going to be better than what I've considered? Where am I all wrong? Unless you’re going to launch 230+ gr bullets, given your intended application, I’d be firmly in 7WSM or 7PRC mode shooting the 180 ELD for long stuff and practice, and the 145 LRX for crushing bone at close range (mainly to keep lead bits out of my meat). To beat it from an external ballistic perspective, you’ve got to go 230+ in .308” and burn a pile of powder.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,581
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,581 |
More love for the WSM than I'm accustomed to seeing. The SAUM is king in these parts when talking long range rig. I have had no trouble finding ADG brass for my SAUM. Hadn't considered ensuring that the shank is good and short. Great advice. Perhaps the 7 SAUM is the better choice than a 30 cal magnum, bearing in mind the performance of 180s in it. That's the kind of knowledge/ experience I was looking for. Much appreciated!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3 |
A 7mm PRC or WSM with a 180 is splitting hairs with a 300WSM and 215- 220.
64 gr give or take with H4350, RL23 or RL16 isn't a pile of powder.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,390 |
Appreciate all the thoughts. I have an excellent local smith that I trust a great deal. I have a 1200 yard range that I shoot from my front porch. The rifle will be used to shoot big game from as close to point blank as possible out to wherever he feels comfortable. I have taken game out to 860 yards with mine. The ability to do so completely changes the game in open country. We reload and aren't beginners, which is seldom evident when someone asks a question on the internet. I'm looking for ideas I haven't considered.
My thoughts are a carbon fiber AG Composite stock, PTG AICS detachable 5 round flush fit, 22-24" Proof Sendero, Bix n Andy trigger, on a Defiance Classic. Not sure on chambering. Looking at the 300 SAUM. I have a similar rifle in 7 SAUM and I'm a fan, but only 2 fit in the belly with BDL bottom. This rifle is a pussycat with 180s at 2800fps. My biggest conundrum is what the best 30 caliber magnum chambering is going to be. All of my long range rifles have a break and recoil very little. We also shoot suppressed and prefer a shorter barrel so they handle better.
So, with more information, what am I missing? 300 SAUM or go long action and try the 300 PRC? What is going to be better than what I've considered? Where am I all wrong? One other thought. If you're really trying to keep the weight down because you might run a suppressor (I run cans on all my guns so I'm always fighting weight), then Beretzs's barrel choice (#2) will save about *one pound* vs using a proof barrel. I try to keep bare rifle weight to 6 lbs because dialable scopes are 20-26 oz, and most light cans are in the 10 ounce range (at least) with mounts. With a can I end up at 8-8.5lbs. A 30 cal fluted short-shanked Rem sporter contour barrel at 21-22" comes in around 32 ounces. A #2 will be almost identical. Vs 48-50 ounces for the Proof, at least from what I can see. All the barrel makers have the Rem Sporter contour programmed. As far as I can tell it's the best suppressor mounting contour bc it's light but the still muzzle finishes at .650 so it's got plenty of shoulder if you thread the muzzle 9/16x24. Most #2 contours finish closer to .600 or .610 at 22" so there's less meat to torque the suppressor mount against.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3 |
Personally I worry more about enough thickness around the crown so it doesn't bell the end of the barrel, in my opinion. 150 min.from the minor dia. A 9/16 has just over .500, 5/8 = .565.
In my opinion nothing less than .650 for 7mm and .670 for .30 cal if you can do a 9/16 thread.
If I was gonna get a .650 barrel threaded 5/8 which i prefer for more meat at the crown I would have it shouldered at the end of the barrel.
Last edited by sherm_61; 11/07/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
...I have had no trouble finding ADG brass for my SAUM. Hadn't considered ensuring that the shank is good and short. Great advice. Perhaps the 7 SAUM is the better choice than a 30 cal magnum, bearing in mind the performance of 180s in it. That's the kind of knowledge/ experience I was looking for. Much appreciated! That works, too!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
A 7mm PRC or WSM with a 180 is splitting hairs with a 300WSM and 215- 220.
64 gr give or take with H4350, RL23 or RL16 isn't a pile of powder. That depends on several factors. Wind speed? Distance? Etc. The more difficult the conditions, the more the 7mm shines and outpaces the .300. Like I said, if you step up to a large-bore .300 and 230+ gr bullets, the tables turn.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,133 Likes: 7
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,133 Likes: 7 |
A 7mm PRC or WSM with a 180 is splitting hairs with a 300WSM and 215- 220.
64 gr give or take with H4350, RL23 or RL16 isn't a pile of powder. That depends on several factors. Wind speed? Distance? Etc. The more difficult the conditions, the more the 7mm shines and outpaces the .300. Like I said, if you step up to a large-bore .300 and 230+ gr bullets, the tables turn. curious as to what a "large-bore .300" is ?
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
A 7mm PRC or WSM with a 180 is splitting hairs with a 300WSM and 215- 220.
64 gr give or take with H4350, RL23 or RL16 isn't a pile of powder. That depends on several factors. Wind speed? Distance? Etc. The more difficult the conditions, the more the 7mm shines and outpaces the .300. Like I said, if you step up to a large-bore .300 and 230+ gr bullets, the tables turn. curious as to what a "large-bore .300" is ? A figure of speech. I had an inkling someone would take issue with the intentional verbal inaccuracy. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3 |
A 7mm 180 Berger at 2950 and a 30 cal 215 at 2850 are virtually identical for wind drift at 1,000 yards. If your a energy person the 215 is about 150lbs better at 1,000.
The only thing the 7mm does is dial about 1.25 m.o.a less at 1,000 but who cares dialing is dialing.
Last edited by sherm_61; 11/07/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
Bullets matter. Swap the 180 Berg for a 180 ELD.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3 |
Bullets matter. Swap the 180 Berg for a 180 ELD. How many Hornys you see on a 1,000 yard line and how many Bergers? Theres a reason its just about all Bergers or custom.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,592 Likes: 11 |
Bullets matter. Swap the 180 Berg for a 180 ELD. How many Hornys you see on a 1,000 yard line and how many Bergers? Theres a reason its just about all Bergers or custom. Plenty of Hornady in the PRS games I play. I've shot a fair bit of Berger and a lot of Horn, and both have been very easy to tune. Speaking of splitting hairs...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 3 |
Bullets matter. Swap the 180 Berg for a 180 ELD. How many Hornys you see on a 1,000 yard line and how many Bergers? Theres a reason its just about all Bergers or custom. Plenty of Hornady in the PRS games I play. I've shot a fair bit of Berger and a lot of Horn, and both have been very easy to tune. Speaking of splitting hairs... Bullets matter. Swap the 180 Berg for a 180 ELD. How many Hornys you see on a 1,000 yard line and how many Bergers? Theres a reason its just about all Bergers or custom. Plenty of Hornady in the PRS games I play. I've shot a fair bit of Berger and a lot of Horn, and both have been very easy to tune. Speaking of splitting hairs... How many in the BR and F-Class game?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,285 Likes: 10
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,285 Likes: 10 |
One thing about Bergers is they have very consistent BCs bullet to bullet. I do know a few long range prone shooters who use Hornadys due to cost, but they do sort them. The F Class guys seem to all shot Bergers or Sierras here at the Ben Avery range at least.
My electronic target also shows, to me at least, that published BCs are often optimistic. Haven't noticed that with Bergers when comparing velocity readings at the 1000 yard target face.
Last edited by MikeS; 11/07/23.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,581
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,581 |
I've been having them barreled with #5 contour Benchmarks with deep spiral flutes at 22". The exact same rifle with a Proof is lighter by about 12oz. Mine come in at 6# 2oz bare. That's with the AnTi action - seems like the Classic is within a couple oz.
We're planning an AK hunt for a couple years in the future and I'm leaning heavy toward the 30 cal magnum because I like the idea of heavy bullets for moose. The 7 SAUM with 180s is ample for elk, but I'd like a little more anchoring ability for moose near water. I've also come to the conclusion that elk and bigger critters require bullets that hold together better than the Bergers and ELD M type. They work just fine when everything goes right, but when it doesn't, lack of penetration creates a rodeo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,285 Likes: 10
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,285 Likes: 10 |
We're planning an AK hunt for a couple years in the future and I'm leaning heavy toward the 30 cal magnum because I like the idea of heavy bullets for moose. The 7 SAUM with 180s is ample for elk, but I'd like a little more anchoring ability for moose near water. I've also come to the conclusion that elk and bigger critters require bullets that hold together better than the Bergers and ELD M type. They work just fine when everything goes right, but when it doesn't, lack of penetration creates a rodeo. Sound logic
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,368 Likes: 13
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,368 Likes: 13 |
We're planning an AK hunt for a couple years in the future and I'm leaning heavy toward the 30 cal magnum because I like the idea of heavy bullets for moose. The 7 SAUM with 180s is ample for elk, but I'd like a little more anchoring ability for moose near water. I've also come to the conclusion that elk and bigger critters require bullets that hold together better than the Bergers and ELD M type. They work just fine when everything goes right, but when it doesn't, lack of penetration creates a rodeo. Sound logic Nothing for nothing, and I don't hunt as far as some of you all, but the 175 ABLR's kicked out of the 7 Mashburn at 3090 was a very wicked bullet. I realize it isn't near the BC of others mentioned, but they shot great to 800 during pre season shooting and flat pounded 3 elk for us this year (between 490 and 605 yards), no elk moving under it's own power after the bullet touched down. We recovered 2 out of the three bullets during skinning. One elk took it through the front legs, while the others were rib shots at quartering angles and man, it was devastation left in their wake. I am sure 10 other bullets would have done as well, but I felt a little better with the bonded bullet up close. All in my head maybe, but they worked as advertised.
Last edited by beretzs; 11/08/23.
Semper Fi
|
|
|
|
|
379 members (06hunter59, 1Longbow, 22kHornet, 2500HD, 160user, 1badf350, 32 invisible),
2,480
guests, and
1,084
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,783
Posts18,536,223
Members74,041
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
