Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Concentricity issue with brass?

Posted a while back about my new project but I will mention again for those that did not see my last post.

Recently got a like new 257 Weatherby Mag Vangaurd in 257WM. Unable to source brass at a reasonable price I decided to make it out of once fired 264 Win Mag brass. Seemed an easy step as I annealed and ran the 264 through the 257 RCBS resizing die and brass looked great. I had some marginal success with a full charge of H4831 and 80gr Barnes ttsx's but was getting flyers in my groups. I suspected that it might have something to do with concentricity so I barrowed a gauge and checked the 20 rounds I had loaded. Seems the best neck was right at 3 thousands out and worst was 10 to 12.

I will admit to being a little lazy on resizing and I am sure that has cost me as I did not lube inside of neck on every brass. I did on some and I always spray 1 shot towards inside of necks when I lube.

My question is that I have 250 re-sized brass that I am sure most are going to be out of spec as far as being 3 thousands and under run-out. Is there a die that I can use to straighten them out?

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

The brutal truth is, lazy and precision don't mesh well.

Ya gotta fire em in your chamber and then delve into what's inducing the run-out. You may need to turn the thick/thin out of your necks if I'm reading your problem correctly.

There is also a laundry list of things that make flyers.

Necked turning cases on my 300 Weatherby Mag made no noticeable difference with standard deviation. Best accuracy comes with near max or max charges. Recently I bought a Lee Collet neck die to see if that helps and it works great with my .30-06 and my 270 Winchester. Redding dies are really good dies. Neck tension improves considerably with my 06 and 270, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with doing it with a magnum cartridge unless you load them one at a time. However.... I would suspect it would effect pressures and ultimately effect accuracy.

Yes I do understand the lazy part! Lol And I do understand other issues causing flyers and am trying to eliminate them 1 at a time. I was looking for the Tru-Angle tool but notice that it must not be made anymore? Curious if a collet type die could be used to straighten the brass I already have resized? I have used LEE Collet dies in the past to produce great shooting reloads but I noticed that LEE does not make one for a 257WM. I do have one for a 25-06 and have read somewhere where someone has used it successfully to neck size 257WM by adding washers under die?

I plan on neck sizing fire-formed brass from now on and see a few options as far as dies and would appreciate advice on the best?

Thanks

HeavyBarrel

No advice to give on the lee collet dies, never needed them.

How thick are four points on your necks? Can you find thick/thin on them? Best with a ball mic if you have one. You necked down from 264 to 257, so there's a chance you created thicker necks. So it's possible you can turn down to a concentric .013 or .014 neck thickness. Just floating that old school option out there.

I make 243 and 260 brass from Lapua and Starline 308 hulls. This gives me a pretty thick neck that I then can turn down to the .014 that I like to use with .002 neck tension. Maybe it's. 013 that I turn on them. Been a while and I'm not at my notes, but anyway, you get the idea.

Try to determine if it's neck thick/thin causing the run-out. If not then it's your die/press throwing things off. Honestly though, trying to make concentric ammo with brass that's just been formed in dies and annealed is gonna be tough. Pretty much the same scenario that factory ammo presents. Measure factory ammo and you'll see what i mean. Like I said, other than the thick/thin neck thing, firing in your chamber first, THEN hunting down the problem, is probably the best way to go. You might just see most of that TIR just go away after the first firing.

(On aside, there's hardly any neck or neck thickness on a 300WM to start with. Paper thin. I've not a clue why anybody would even try turning them even thinner.)

On the Lee collet neck die, I would think the washer trick on your 25-06 die would work just fine. Also no harm in trying I would say. Size, rotate in thirds and resize again twice is a good technique with the Lee collet die.

I guess I could start with 2 thick a washer/shim, smoke or color neck, decrease thickness of washer/shims until I get desired depth correct? Sound like a decent method??

How are the Redding Neck Dies? Any experience??

HeavyBarrel

Yes smoke neck to see what’s happening. Also be mindful of any differences in neck length between the two cartridges.
Redding dies are all well made and work well. I only have them in full length so can’t comment on the neck dies.

The maker of the Trutool posts here sometimes, he wrote a while back that he had stopped making them due to the cost of materials.
IIRC, in one of JB's articles from years gone by, he wrote that he had drilled the appropriate sized hole in his loading bench and accomplished the same thing. You could try that.
I'll tell you from personal experience, if they are along way out you will have a tough time getting them straight. And the Hornady tool won't do as well as the Trutool.
Here is a suggestion that might work. Take the expander out and size a few of them again. Then replace the expander and expand the neck when the ram is going up. Screw it down far enough that you can expand the neck without the case fully entering the die. This is a good method to follow any time, you don't run the risk of making the cases crooked when pulling them out of the die.
Not sure if the Lee Collet will help you, it would be worth a try if you can find the proper size washers.
Not sure that neck turning would help, I'd bet against it.
Worse case, you fire form and do a better job next time.

ETA: Redding S dies are the neck dies you'd want. Not the normal neck dies, the S dies support the case so as not to induce run out.

On loaded rounds I'd have the indicator tip on the bullet ogive showing me the runout of the assembled cartridge.


Do you have an idea of how many thousandths the expander ball had to enlarge the necks on its way out?


There is something you can try that may help diagnose the problem.


Pick a few cases with bad neck runout. Take the expander out of the die and run the cases through it again. Check the runout on the necks, and measure their outside diameters as well. Put the expander back into the die. Lube the inside of the necks and push (then pull) them over the expander ball. Do not push the cases far enough into the die to size them again. What is the neck runout now? How much larger are the outside diameters of the necks than when in the sized but not expanded state?

There's no substitute for high quality dies.

I use Forster, other will do just as well.

It will certainly tell you a lot about your process. I bought the hornady concentricity tool to give me an idea how my loading was going, it will also help you correct one with an issue. Way less flyers since I started using it, I seem to have a few out of a batch that just get off. I'll run factory rounds through it too.

Try the ORing trick on the die, some folks think it helps keeps thing aligned. I've done it in the past, it didn't hurt.

The sizing die governs the outside dimensions of the case, correct? If the necks are thick one side, and thin the other, the seated bullet is automatically put off the center axis of the rest of the case body, correct? The only way to fix that is to cut the thick side off leaving the thin side alone or just BARELY skinning over it, depending on how much thick/thin from case to case. Then, after the next firing, the axis of the neck interior will be in line with the axis of the case body exterior. Which puts the bullet in line with the axis of the case body. If concentricity is an issue, that's one contributing factor that can be minimized or eliminated.

Good post. That's the way I'd attack it as well. I agree, probably a non issue once fireformed and necks turned. TIR should be minimized going this route. That is if his loading equipment is not introducing a concentricity issue. Making sure dies are adjusted properly is always one of the first steps in producing straight ammo. Furthermore, a lot of guys don't understand how important straight ammo is for achieving the best precision because they don't own a concentricity gauge. They are in the dark, so to speak.

The concentricity gauge sure opened my eyes. I have been loading for about 30 years and never ran into a rifle that I just couldn't get to shoot decent with tailored handloads. No competition grade accuracy but plenty good for hunting.

Thanks for all the advice above. I wish I had not prepped all the brass already and probably have induced excessive run out to them. Was hoping there was an easy fix, like just running them back through a neck die.

I may just load them up with as mild a charge as I can and shoot some of the cheaper bullets out of it and just fireform them all. I will check run out of fired brass through my rifle this evening.

Thought I was close and may be with concentric brass as it was putting 3 in a pretty tight cluster but would sometimes through an unexplained flyer. Yes plenty of cooling time between rounds and groups.

Gun is factory other than Rifle Basics Trigger and quality mounts and scope so when I get the concentricity thing figured out I can at least rule that out as an issue. Next is new stock that is free floated.

HeavyBarrel

Sounds like you will get it sorted out. I'd also check case capacity as well. Hopefully the brass you are using is from the same lot? Also remember you can minimize run out by fine tuning your sizing die adjustment. Mathman used to give detailed instructions on how to do this. I run run of the mill RCBS dies and generally load ammo that is .003" TIR and less. So again, the guys saying you need high dollar dies are wrong. Hate to keep throwing that in their face, but they are trying to get rid of an issue the lazy way and needlessly throwing money at an issue where you don't have to. The concentricity gauge is a must though, as you said, it can be an "eye opener"..

First off, John Barsness wrote a series of books on reloading for hunting rifles " The Big book of Gun Gack " The chapters on setting up dies should be studied as if you will be tested on them. Those two chapter are worth the price of the books alone.

On this forum, a guy was getting a large amount of runout using 30-06 brass with Redding 338-06 dies. So I measured the runout of my resized from 30-06 brass using a Lee 338-06 die. I got 1/2 of what he did. That might have explained my less than stellar accuracy, at around an inch. That was my start of the concentric ammo quest.

- I reread the chapters
- I bought a tubing micrometer and used it ( it's tedious as all 'L )
- I annealed cases
- I improved the design of my jig for checking concenticity.

I had from the very beginning of my reloading understood the problem of necks, it's just common sense, and had cleaned and lubed them.

I can not emphasize too much the importance of those chapters.

If they are under .005 or .006 when you stick a bullet in them, I would just load them and shoot.

I have several rifles that will shoot rounds with .0005 runout and rounds with .005 runout into the same group at 600 yards.

The degree of runout sensitivity on a given rifle seems to be bullet/chamber dependent. I don't know why...I just know that some of my rifles/loads are agnostic to runout at .006 and under. I aim for .001 or less but once in a while sh*t goes wrong.

Outside neck runout means nothing. When your expander pushes through, any unevenness is pushed to the outside of the neck. It is loaded ammo that matters and it should be checked at the ogive if you’re going to check it.

I haven’t noticed a difference in SD or precision with runout in the 0.006” range. Some people report it makes a big difference in their rifle, but I question the tolerance of their load and their chamber.

Lee Collet dies produce less TIR than a Redding neck bushing die even with unturned necks. Forget the washer trick on the collet die. Drill the recess deeper in the aluminum cap which allows the collet to close more for better sizing before it makes contact with the mandrel. A slight cam over does away with the "handle pressure" per Lee instructions.