Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Reloading advice.

I have a M70XTR fwt 7X57 (early1985), with a long throat. Doesn't shoot any factory very well (should do better!), tho the 175 RN gave the best group. I tried different powder loads of IMR 4350 to listed OAL, no improvement in accuracy using primed new Winchester brass that came with the rifle. I figure the jump to lands per the 175 indication is part of the problem, so reloads are the way I'm going.

I am going to try some just purchased 3031 per Seafire's posts, and load them out beyond listed 3.000 OAL but not beyond bullet diameter seating depth. No prob - mag length is 3.165, and some I've just done out to lands feed fine.

I have loaded the remaining new, primed Win brass, 5 ea. from 35 gr to 40, 1 grain increments. OAL is .002 to .007 from lands depending on tip deformation, I guess, using Sierra 150 gr SPBT, which most reached the lands with the ogive, given a one-diameter seating rule. (If I have the terminology right) They feed fine from the magazine, at 3.055 -3.060 (tip deformation again) (120, 140, 175 NP, and Sierra 160 SPBT also measured and recorded for future consideration. If I recall the 175 NP OAL ogive to lands was the same, or nearly so.

Distance to lands was (and will. be) measured rather primitively - 10-12 trials with bullets of good tip appearance, ejector removed from bolt, middle 5 or 6 measurements averaged out. Close as I'm gonna get.

Reloads with fired brass will be neck sized only to near, but not touching shoulder, using FL dies. Brass will be weight sorted, tho opinions seem to vary on that, Unless Imcan come up with 100 Hornady.

Besides the new and once fired Win brass (45, total), I have a box of once fired Rem, 3 of Federal, and I will of course standardize on one. Hornady brass and ammo for this caliber seems to be unobtanium at this point, which I'd prefer. Only saw some Fed loaded ammo in SW- at nearly $50 a box. Ain't going there, unless just for brass, once I work things out a bit.


Question is, do I pick a powder charge first (which I did- 40 gr 3031) , and experiment with "jump", or pick a "jump" to lands first, and redo the powder amounts?

But I've some bedding work to do first, so no hurry - I can redo either way if necessary.

Also for you experienced ones, is accuracy consistent with the consistent "jump" to lands between bulleti weights or types - they will have different seating depths, according to ogive. Or do each one of these mofos require a different workup? I ain't picky, when (if) I find a load that goes 1.25 MOA, I'll probably stop fooling with it.. Or not

Yeah, I do know- change one damned thing at a time! I'll stick with just the Winchester brass and Sierra 150's for now. And I'll know the primers, which always helps.

Probably the simplest thing to do with this lot of loaded ammo is 5 targets, shooting one bullet from each load, checking for pressure signs, then fire the (safe) rest for group? Then go for the jump thing using the fire-formed brass?

Give me a reality check here, I'm about a 90IQ reloader to date- I've only done the powder charge workup, using whatever was on hand, and always just reloaded to published OAL. Always managed to get a 1.25 MOA load, so this is high school - well, maybe Jr. High...

I’ll start,

Powder first, then jump,

But something tells me the rifle is the issue,
You can not get any of the factory loads to group,
You’ve already dabbled with hand loads,
Still no improvement………..

What’s the size groups you’re getting?

Not sure what you mean by measuring OAL by "tip deformation"? I and most of the guys I know use sharpie marker on the bullet and note when the leade marks onto the black ink when chambered- and adjust accordingly.

However, I usually try a couple different powders starting low on the loading book chart and work up to max. At least one of those loads will almost always start to show promise. Then work it down to .2-.3 grain increments of powder adjustments around the most accurate groups. Once I have a group that starts to look satisfactory I start to adjust the seating depth in small increments until I know it is as good as it gets. Always use the same components ie... Remington brass, or ???? for all of the testing to eliminate one variable. Check your brass by length and weight and trim if necessary. If this doesn't work to your satisfaction, try another powder and start over. I've had a couple rifles that preferred a powder I would have never dreamed would have been right for that cartridge, but worked like magic.

One other thing I have tried with difficult rifles- the business card method. Put a business card under the front of the barrel near the foreend and keep adding them until you get a bit of pressure on the barrel. Once you have a fairly good group, add another card or two to see if the group gets better, worse, or no change.

I’ve always made a dummy round over length to kiss the lands and back it up a notch and go from there

The one caliber seating depth rule isn't really anything to worry about.

The length of the throat may not be all of the issue. How generous is the diameter of the throat?

If you’re doing load development without a chronograph you are wasting your time.

Especially for the 7x57.

Don’t get too hung up on the jump
Most don’t agree that’s fine but I don’t have a single rifle that doesn’t shoot better backed off the lands and I have a bunch
What your dealing with is a hunting rifle sporter weight
It’s a tall order if your expecting benchrest accuracy
I have many rifles shoot 1/2 inch or less
Powder burn rare is very important
I always liked 414 in the 7x57
I have seen the slightest things change group size drastically
I recall struggling wit a sako 30-06 I felt an older sako should shoot better than 2-3 inches
I switched from Winchester brass to hornady and instantly to 3/4 to 1 1/4 working range
My opinion is brass over the last 20 years don’t seem as consistent as it was years ago

The long throat "might" the issue but I would look elsewhere.

I was just updating notes on a trusty 308 I shot last week & noticed my load was .150" off the lands. I might be doubted if I said how well that factory barreled action shoots.

Some rifles shoot great, some not so well. But all the components, fasteners, glass etc, need a look. Distance to the lands is just a small part, or even not, part of the equation.

I too have a couple of good shooting 308s where the bullets are jumping 1/8" or more.

Sounds like you bought this used? When was it cleaned last? I’ve gotten many guns that wouldn’t shoot to do so because the previous owner didn’t apparently think cleaning the gun was important.

What does the muzzle crown look like? A nick there will make it throw shots.

Oh Christ.

LOL

Find out the way we did 60 years ago!

I have loaded for a lot of long throated rifles and I'm not sure seating depth is super critical. In general, if the cartridge fits the magazine and the bullet is seated enough to hold well, that's good enough. If I'm loading for a 7x57, 4350 is my preferred powder and 150 to 160 grain bullets are my preferred weight. If I am loading 175's, I might switch to 4831.
My 7x57 is throated for 168 Sierra MK's, seated to the juncture of the neck and shoulder, because that's how I built it. I seat 160's and 150's slightly shorter and performance is good enough. GD

I also would try 4350.

What he said. Adjust powder until you find the tightest velocity spread across the shot group, typically 3 rounds at each powder level. Need a chronograph like was mentioned already.

Then load 3 shot rounds at that powder level but now vary the cartridge lengths. You should see the group size shrink/expand as you go along.

Most of all, consult with bullet manufacturer. They can give some guidance on where they typically see the best performance based on jump. But that's just a starting point. Not all guns behave the same.

Get a new barrel.

Have you tried anyone else suggestions on a load? Someone with the same gun?

I still don't understand how members who have been here for thousands of posts have trouble navigating the forum.

If only there was a rifle reloading forum on here that'd be super neat.

I wish there was a food and cooking sub forum. Sigh

Mine liked 175s and 4895 for the powder...hint.

Can a shorty get a sub-forum for thoughts and prayers?

There was a religious sub-forum for a short while, but they kept calling for crusades on each other and Bin shîtcanned it.

.


Powder-Powder Charge-Bullet, first, OAL last.


Yeah that's the right way to do it, but the 7x57 is rated at 51K MAP in psi. It is highly doubtful you will see any pressure signs in a modern Bolt action rifle at pressures less than 60K, more like 70K.

I myself wouldn't waist a whole lot of time, bullets and powder shooting low presser anemic 51K book loads.

What was it stick always typed?

Kiss lands; rockon, or something.

This is the best advice here. Barrels from that era, especially Winchesters, were often shiit. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do with handloading, it's just not going to shoot. I found out with a Ruger 7mm rem mag from that era that it's better to cut your losses early. I ran hundreds of dollars in reloading supplies through that rifle trying to get it to shoot less than 3 MOA and it just wasn't happening, it took a new barrel to fix it.

It sounds like the throat on that barrel is reallllllllly long. Maybe it's time to set it back a bit ??

kwg

I was hoping Kenneth came back with some more reloading advice.

LOL

Stupid fugk can't even light a grill.

Your advice on the chrono was worthy,

But completely missed the point on the issues with factory ammo,

You’re just moody ‘cause the Bears still suck.

do not start jump in the middle of possible distances! Go to max magazine length. then only way you have to go is further in the case. You are leaving .165.

If magazine length is 3.165”, that is the first governing factor of your COAL. The other factor for COAL is your cartridge into the rifle lands.

Items needed for COAL to lands: cleaning rod, tape, chosen bullet, small dia. dowel or similar at 6”-8” long, micrometer, loading press, 7x57 brass.

Step 1 - Make sure you have an empty chamber.

Step 2 - Close bolt, stand rifle up, drop cleaning rod, wrap tape around rod at the end of the barrel. That is the end of barrel measurement now represented on your rod from a closed bolt.

Step 3 - Take bolt out, turn barrel upside down, drop bullet straight into the lands, take dowel and place into bullet base, turn back with barrel upward while holding dowel into bullet base pressed into lands, drop rod back in and place tape on rod at top of barrel again, same as done previous.

Step 4 - Get micrometer and measure from bottom of bullet tape to bottom of bolt tape, that is your COAL into the lands.

Step 5 - From here your COAL is governed by your own endeavors with the exception of magazine length allowance.

Step 6 - Make a dummy cartridge with bullet and case only about 0.050” off the lands based on your COAL to lands. See how it cycles from magazine to chamber and ejection.

It’s up to you to decide your desired accuracy. This is where dedicated time and use of different powders and bullet seating with loads occurs. If you want to go 0.030” or less off the lands or go opposite direction greater than 0.050” it’s all in tedious trials depending on your expectations. Yes, a chronograph is a much needed component to get to an exacting understanding of performance and to complete the overall task.

You’re going at it based on your OP as a cart before the horse. Kiss lands finding COAL is the starting point before any other application is initiated. Only one man’s opinion.

Loads that works in a 7-08 usually work well in 7x57's.

So until you can get a handle on whether or not the barrel is just not good, I'd suggest that you try 140 grain bullets (Nosler BT) & Varget at 42 grains as it's almost always an accurate powder in any decent barrel & a suitable loading for whatever cartridge it's suitable for.

Also RL-15 at 42 gr or H-4350 at 46 gr.

And as for a starting seating depth, .020 - .030" off the lands, almost never don't work............may not be optimum for a given gun, but is a rational starting point for a given bullet / powder until you can get a clue.

If none of those 3 powders & bullet can do <1.5", then it's highly likely that you have a crappy barrel.

If you don't have 140 gr bullets available, then use 120's or 150's & adjust powder accordingly; leave the 160 & 175's alone until you find something that will work or not with the lighter bullets. Then RL-22 or IMR-4831 is your friend.

No sense in pouring $$$ down a rat hole with a bad barrel.

Your money, your time but once the horse is dead, continuing to beat it won't revive it.

MM

Good advice

I didn’t read the entire thread but I’d scope the barrel or have it scored. If rifling is good and the throat not eroded. Have the barrel set back and see how it shoots

Tubb Final Finish

I would set your bullets somewhere around/between 30 and 40 thousandths off of the lands. Then vary the powder charge. If your rifle likes the powder and bullet combination you will know right away. Your rifle won't go from shooting terrible groups to bugholes by tiny changes in the same powder or tiny changes in seating depth, in my experience. If you find a combination that it likes you will see your groups around 1" to 3/4" and then tiny changes will tighten that up. My 2¢ for what it's worth.

I use a Hornady Lock-N-Load chamber depth gauge and seat the bullet as close to the rifling as the magazine length will allow. It's easy to make a checking case for oddball cartridges- - - -just get the proper size threading tap (5/16-32, I believe) and make your own checking case.

7x57, 0.75" 5 shot group, IMR4350 48.5 gr, Hornady #2820, 139gr Interlock (0.392 bc), Rem 9 1/2 primer, 3.082" OAL, 2830fps, es13, sd5, seat bot of can just above mouth

This is my go to load for an A&B 21" bbl VZ24 receiver w/Timney trigger rifle I assembled.

Isn't there a reloading section here on the 'Fire? 🤷‍♂️

There is, but it's an awful tough crowd down there.

I have 4 rifles - 1 doug barrel, 2 mil RSI barrels, 1 modern win fwt. They all like a light load of 3031 and 139 btsp .
length is what ever is in the reloading book

I sent a XTR in 6.5x55 down the road years ago with the same problem. Looking back I wish I would have spun the barrel back some and recut the chamber.

Weatherby's are noted for shooting great with a long bullet jump. .1-.125"

I'd try Muledeer's method first of putting a bread bag tie clip between the front action screw and top of recoil lug. Unless you are 100% sure the barrel is not touching stock and there is enough free float that the whip of the barrel does not either. Then I would start adding shims under the front of the barrel and forestock as Shiester advised.

I had a 7x 57 and found the front action screw was touching the edge of the hole. Also check that the top of the magazine box is not touching the receiver

There are a lot of little things as mentioned that you could try before rebarreling for $250-$300.

Yep powder first, but 4350, 4064, 4895, Varget, 3031 will all work. Even 4831 for heavier bullets .

Make sure your barrel is cool for each shot. Lot of ways to do that. I take 2-3 flexible ice packs in a cooler and lay on the barrel after each sho.t

Make sure to spend twice as much money as a new barrel would cost while your prick around!


Then you will truly develop a hatred!

Consistency is accuracy. 4350 is at the slow end for 7x57 propellant. Unless you're loading absolute max with 4350 you're probably getting inconsistent burn, consequently inconsistent velocity and inconsistent accuracy.

3031 is a step in the right direction.

I'd try working up a load with H4895. You might not find the *absolute* best accuracy with H4895. But if you load close to maximum with H4895 in the 7X57 you can eliminate inconsistent burn as a contributing factor. H4895 loaded at the upper end of 7X57 loads will burn consistently.

If you're serious about chasing accuracy it's a good idea to buy a chronograph. A chronograph will tell you when you've found a charge that burns consistently and consequently will give you a small extreme spread.

Aren't SAAMI specification 7X57 chambers throated for that ridiculously long round nose bullet- - - -something like 190 grains or so? When I had Dave Manson grind my 7 X 57 reamer, I sent him a dummy round loaded with a Spitzer bullet and had the reamer ground for a normal amount of clearance for that cartridge. Phugg those round nose loads- - - - -I'm not shooting elephants in the ear hole like Karamojo Bell!

I had one of those XTR FWTs in 7x57, it shot well with a very stiff load of 760 (or 414, same thing) or with IMR-4350. I was using 139 Hornady Spire Points or Speer 145 BTSPs.

One thing I found out about the 57mm cased cartridges, they shoot better with the stiffest loads of 760 you can get away with. 6mm Rem., .257 Roberts, 7x57, all responded to stiff loads with 760. I was usiing CCI 250 primers, IIRC. A couple of those rifles wouldn't shoot with anything BUT 760, and just got better and better the more you poured it to 'em.