Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters New Hodgdon Burn Chart Nov 23

I was just glancing at it, and much to my great horror , Ramshot Magnum isn't listed. Instead it has Ramshot Grand and LRT ( ? ) . What Happened ? Magnum is my go-to powder for my 264WM !

Amazes me sometimes that people don’t realize Ramshot is now owned by Hodgdons and are surprised that they might kill off certain powders. Doesn’t surprise me a bit.

Sorry for your loss.

Looks to me that they might have just renamed Magnum. Grand is on pretty much the same place on the chart as Magnum used to be, near H1000.

I sure hope you are right. It really shines in my 264. I'm not too keen to do another load development . 264 barrels are not noted for their longevity.

First the Endurons got killed, and now Magnum? Bummer.
Magnum is fantastic in my 257 Roberts with the 115 Partition. At least I have enough to last my life.

Here's the LINK

Comparing to earlier chart it does look like "Grand" sits exactly where Magnum used to.

Cheers,
Rex

I just received the latest edition of the Hodgdon Annual Manual, and looked at the article of Joseph Von Benedikt on Grand powder, comparing it to the Magnum data still listed on the Hodgdon website.

Joe worked up to the maximum charges Hodgdon provided for various cartridges, but his list of test loads stops about a grain under max. As an example, in the 6.5 PRC he used 59.0 grains with the Hornady 147-grain ELD-M, for 2791 in the 22" barrel of his rifle, for 2791 fps.

The maximum Magnum charge, listed in the manual, for the 147 ELD-M is 61.3 grains, for 2937 fps from a 24" barrel. Joe also used a different primer with Grand than Hodgdon did for their Magnum data.

One of the few 6.5 PRC loads in the Annual Manual that lists both Grand and Magnum with the same bullet, the 153-grain Hornady A-Tip, shows 61.0 grains of Magnum as max for 2893 fps, and 58.7 grains of Grand as max for 2891 fps.

The major difference in Grand appears to be a decoppering agent, but its also claimed to be temp-stable, much like the Staball powders. But I have tested Magnum in various temperatures cartridge since it appeared, and its always been just about as temp-stable as Hodgdon Endurons.

Forecast bad things as Hodgdons bought everything up.

Was pounded on by naive fan boys.

Didn't have to be Nostradamus to see one company absorbing almost every competing supplier of multiple competing product lines as very bad.
Products were certainly going to be eliminated,
and prices would surely drop.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

It amazes me all the new powders that have come about in the last 10-15 years. When I started reloading close to 25 years ago the powders didn't seem like they had changed much from the previous decades. Now more new powders have come and gone than I can keep track of.

I am glad the companies keep innovating and brings new products to the market but in our current times with such shortages I wonder if more efforts would be better spent in keeping up with supply vs new products? I am sure it is two different parts of the company so one probably doesn't effect the other. I am glad to see that the shortage is starting to subside.

It's like every other industry in the country.
Engineers have to come up with new and
innovative to justify their jobs regardless
if the niche is already filled, same as the
marketing execs

Thanks Mule Deer. That looks like a another series of load development .Swear word. At least they are running Grande at a higher pressure, if you can infer that from the same max velocity . I have been looking for Magnum for a while now, I guess I'm S.O.L

Ramshot powders had been difficult to get in Canada.( A single small importer who showed up at the big Kamloops show) With the Hodgdon take over I had hoped for an easier time, which is generally true.

I don' think they killed off Endurons, the same plant makes the old IMR series. IMR 4350 is available. I think it's just quicker and easier to make the old IMR powders , than the new powders.

I have plenty of Magnum on hand. I am looking forward to trying the Grand. I wish all rifle powders had de-coppering agents and were temperature stable. There’s been good powders coming out and some poor powders disappearing.
Unfortunately a few of the powders I liked are gone too. My 35 Whelen and 350 Mag liked IMR4320 for example.

I would like to know the real reason the new IMR powders are no longer in production. It doesn’t make sense to me.

The number of new propellants has increased. We used to say that there were gaps in burn rates, but that's narrowed considerably. And there's this: cleaner burning propellants, copper reducing propellants and improved formulations. Technology continues to advance. I agree that these are positive changes but wonder, like you, how much this affects production.

Reloaders only see a small portion of what powder manufacturers produce and sell. Military and commercial contracts are their bread and butter. It's easy to understand when government or industry orders go up that something's gotta give. Still, while production for our needs might be scaled back, we are nonetheless seeing some stuff on the shelves. I think we should be thankful that some product is managing to find its way to us.

Without expanded manufacturing facilities, it is difficult for them to meet demand. The board rooms make decisions to cycle production to satisfy orders from the big buyers.

I think this is the first new burnrate chart that Hodgdon has brought out since buying Accurate, you would think that they would have fixed some of the obvious blunders but they didn't.

For example Accurate LT-32 was brought out to specifically to compete with VVN133, in reality it has been proven to be just on the slow side. on the chart they have it listed as 11 places faster, even faster than the 4198's. they also have Accurate 2015 as being faster than VVN133 and that has never been the case through 3 different countries of manufacture. then they have Accurate LT-30 as fast as the pistol powders.
could rant more but will leave it at that

I see where this is going. Eventually one company owns all the powder manufacturing. You know what comes after that.

We talk about one powder company when they merely sell the powder manufactures product. The profit margin wasn't enough for Winchester brand, IMR brand, Accurate or Ramshot to bother any more.

The maximum Grand load I cited is listed at 61,300 PSI, the maximum Magnum load at 61,00o PSI.

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 6.5 PRC is 65,000 PSI, regardless of powder.

No, that's not the reason.

Instead Enduron production was suspended due to the Quebec plant's previous military contracts for powder, which they couldn't fulfill unless they suspended production of some handloader powders. The demand for the older IMRs was higher than for Endurons, which is why they suspended Endurons.

Sounds like boomer reloader's are resistant to change, lol.

Thanks for that explanation MD. I understand that line of reasoning, since IMR4350, IMR4895, & IMR4831 are powders that work well in many cartridges, at least for me. I never worked out a load with IMR4451 that worked as well as H4350 and IMR4350, but I didn’t try that hard with the prices of components slowing experimentation.

The thought had occurred to me that the profit margin was greater with the old powders, but your explanation makes more sense.

That powder choice makes sense .

That's good on pressures. Years ago, after an unwilling experimentation, I studied the load manual's pressures. Hmm, that powder behaves itself, that powder can get squirrelly at the top. It's maximum pressure is lower than other powders for that cartridge, that is a bit of a warning. I now pay close attention to the pressures in the manuals.

I now pay close attention to the pressures in the manuals.[/quote]

I wish everyone would do this .

But most don't. Many start with the max load right away.

There are some errors in manuals though. One of my manuals had 35 Remington and 358 Winchester loads exchanged.

It has been said here by many in the past...but I will repeat, we will rue the day the Hodgdon giant began cannabalizing the competition and sourcing powders all over the world. And when a giant like Hodgdon derives the big money from .gov...they will do whatever is required to keep those big contracts coming. I'm not saying conspiracy...I'm saying we have plenty of historical fact to support the fact that .gov suborns big corporations for political ends. Mandatory mileage and emissions, healthcare, media, carbon extortion, energy production...the track record of .gov is undeniable.
What can we do? Buy brand X from the little manufacturer whenever feasible...and hope the big H doesn't go corporate raider mode?
Whether we want to acknowledge it or not...reloading components are by extension, married to the second amendment. Can't happen here? Russian import shooting supplies were banned by the stroke of a pen. To punish the Russians...or to restrict supply to US citizens? Your choice.

Hodgdon is close to becoming a monopoly. Too close.

Same here I’ve got close to 20#s.

As far as I can determine so far, Magnum has not been discontinued.

If this kind of “monopoly” were to happen in virtually any other industry the government would be interceding under anti-trust laws. 🙄

I didn’t see any info on Grand in the Ramshot or Hodgdon sites?

So far I've only seen Grand data in the Hodgdon 2024 Annual Manual--which just came out. They might want to sell some of those before offering free data on the Internet.

FYI Gun Gack IV is still on sale, as are all my game cookbooks, $4-6 off. I know it's late, but with Cubic Priority through Pirateship, it's only a few dollars more to get those packages delivered in time for Christmas. (Just mailed 2 books yesterday to Oregon, for $2.50 extra, and USPS said they would be there Saturday, December 16. For two books, east of the Mississippi will cost another $7. FYI: We normally include shipping in the price, but that's media mail.)
The links are below: cookbooks, then Gun Gack IV: The Little Book of Rifle Loads that Work
Eileen (Mrs. Mule Deer)

https://www.riflesandrecipes.com/product-category/books/wild-game-cookbooks/

https://www.riflesandrecipes.com/product/gun-gack-iv-the-little-book-of-rifle-loads-that-work/

This exactly the reason, but not just any particular age group. Just look at any thread on the fire about powders, you'll see a dozen "I've been using imr4350 for 50 years and I'm not changing now!". Handloaders get so stuck with 1 formula (bullet+case+powder+primer) that they'll go buy factory ammo or use a different gun instead of *gasp* trying something new. Newer loaders will say "I was told to use this or don't even try". I work in the retail side of the industry and I hear these things on a daily basis.

Personally I love loading and experimenting. You never know what you might discover if you only stick to 1 or 2 powders for everything. Especially if they're old standards because, guess what, shortages WILL happen again. Your favorite powder WILL become unavailable again. So either you suck it and foot the increased bill to but a lifetime supply when you can or you adapt.

Agree 100% on this. I like having options, especially in an era where things can get scarce or discontinued at the blink of an eye. I always try to work up loads with a few different powder/bullet combinations for any new rifle I pick up.

I hate the physical process itself, but I'm a load fiddler by nature... it's a bit of a contadiction 🤷‍♂️ I'm always monkeying around with stuff just to see what I can get it to do with new loads, even if I've already got proven shooters for it.

Someone knows how to make coin the publishing biz

Why buy the cow (book) when you can get the milk (data) for free?

When I find something that works I stay with it. The LGS has a bunch of powders I've never heard of and haven't seen in my reloading manuals most of which I feel are redundant from year to year. Guess I'll have to buy the new Nosler and Hornady manuals to decipher what new and improved powders to buy.
Color me Crumudgedon I don't like change. If it works don't try to fix it.

And I've evolved to the opposite.
From picking a "perfect" powder for every gun, to trying to consolidate
on a few that do well in many applications.

I really don't need a powder to maximize the 22-250, 243, Swede, 264, 7mag, 308, 30-06, 300win. Two, maybe 3 will do darn fine in all of them.

This is me. If it’s one thing I’ve learned in these shortages, consolidate!

I don't have a bazillion powders, but I do like to pick up something new to try once in a while. I have a handful that work well across most of my cartridges and have gotten myself well stocked on those.

I did do that with primers... consolidated down to 1 or 2 for each type, and traded off the others for more of the ones I'm using.

I spoke with someone at Hodgdon today and they told me they are NOT discontinuing Magnum powder production. Grand is essentially the same burn rate, “more” temp stable, and has an agent to reduce copper fouling.

He said we should see more Magnum available some time after New Year.

herschel,

That's interesting about the "more" temp stable. As noted earlier in this thread I have tested the same handloads with Magnum at both 70 and zero degrees F., and not just by chilling the ammo but in actual ambient conditions.

The two examples I can find easily were with the .257 Weatherby Magnum and 100-grain Barnes TTSXs, and the 6.5x55 with 140-grain Partitions, in both instances using Ramshot's listed maximum charges for those bullet weights. The .257 Weatherby load lost 32 fps, and the 6.5x55's 24 fps.

That's right in there with all of the other brands powders claimed to be temp-stable by various manufacturers--which have varied around 30 fps from 70 to zero. (Have yet to test any powder that didn't gain velocity--and hence pressure--at over 80 degrees from 70-degree averages--but the "temp-stable" ones tend to gain far less velocity.)

Depends on the Boomer. I switched to the Endurons where possible and when they were discontinued I moved on to Vihtavouri. Was happy with the change in both instances.

Well, there are "book" loads...

And, then there are Fire loads....

Gotta be a lot more fun living on the "edge"....

DF

To borrow from a short verse about air force pilots,

There are old reloaders.
There are bold reloaders.
But there are no old, bold reloaders.

That’s a good one and it does tell a story.

DF

When I first heard that one , it was ironworkers.

Talked with Hodgdon today told me we should see Grand on the shelves late next month. It is manufactured in the USA.

Just idle speculation here...With today's technology...I wonder if there is some type of industrial metrology equipment that could give a much more accurate picture of powder burn characteristics than the burn rate chart? If I understand it correctly, burn rates are determined from 'closed bomb' tests. I assume that to mean X amount of propellant is ignited in a closed pressure vessel, and a time/pressure curve is recorded. The internal volume never changes. I wonder if we could get a more accurate picture derived from some kind of standardized pressure test barrel, where the volume increases as the projectile begins it's travel...increasing the volume, thereby decreasing the pressure.
Even the dullest of us trogdolytes have observed first hand what a long freebore and or zero neck tension can do. I once owned an old '06 that had the most freebore of any rifle I have ever seen, it was impossible to get enough powder to reach book velocities in the H414 category, forget 4350. It took full caseloads of 4064 or faster to get anywhere near 'standard' velocities with the '06.
As experimenters and reloaders it seems to me our life would be simpler with some kind of pressure /time graph that factored in a method of a volume expander to simulate an actual firing sequence. Something on the order of a vertically mounted smoothbore barrel with a smooth fitting heavily weighted piston or rod maybe.
Every reloader of some experience has experienced contradictory examples of burn rate chart performance.

flint: "I wonder if there is some type of industrial metrology equipment..." Baby steps first. I would be happy if powder companies would just publish pressure information (CUP or psi) with the load information they provide. A lot of them don't.

You just brought me a dose of reality, lol.

I wonder how much value there would be if reloaders knew company test pressure information. There are allowable tolerances that take varying case volumes and chamber sizes into consideration. The chambers have to meet SAAMI specs. Nowadays, test equipment has to be checked before each use. Your results, if measured, would be different, but not outrageously so.

Propellant manufacturers have variations (albeit small) that result from the different powder lots.

That is why min/max loads are published and recommendations to work up are always repeated. There is no way to definitely know what pressures will be generated in your rifle. They don't know your equipment, your components or your abilities.

Read where the head guru at Western/Accurate stated that the normal production variation is +3 to -5 percent from the standard. Then touted LT32 as being tighter @ +2 to -3 %.

Wouldnt that be your lot to lot factor?

If that's what the powder manufacturer states, then yes, that would be the lot to lot difference. This would be why they always say to work up your load. That said, I doubt that shooters would be able to notice or detect a 1500 to 2000 PSI difference without test equipment.

Steve, If we as consumers had pressure info of quoted loads in manuals, we could then make an informed guess as to what would be safe in our rifles, right. Example, let's say a guy named Steve has a Ruger No 1 in .303, he knows his rifle easily digests 62,000 psi loads, with very little guesswork he could pick a safe load. But let's say a guy named Flint (primitive unlettered bastard) has a .303 but it is a No4 Mk1, he too could pick a safe load, knowing his rifle should be limited to 52,000....right? In my mind, no such thing as too much info when reloading.

Steve, it was a thread on BR central when LT32 was introduced. And no i cant tell the difference except on the chronograph.

Flintlocke,

If you want to play and take the time, GRT is free. Works on Windows or Linux. You can play with your loads or load’s considered or just use defaults but it will give you a predicted pressure. As with all predictive software its to be taken with a grain of salt, just like load manuals.

Flintlocke, SAAMI members agree to a standard which is discussed by the membership, some of whom are powder and cartridge manufacturers. In your example, the agreed upon maximum pressure is 49KPSI for the 303 British.

The companies that produce the various components don't know what platform you are loading. They do not know your skill level or the condition of your rifle. If you decide to load above the maximum recommended level because you own a No 1 rifle, that is your decision. We live in a litigious society. They do not wish to end up in court because someone misinterpreted or misused what they recommend.

Sticking with the 303, when a company publishes their information, it is based on discussion by members, as said earlier. At some juncture, the point was raised that there are rifles in existence that are weaker than what is manufactured at present. For that reason, they will keep the pressure maximum low. While you may know the difference between a No 1 and a No 4 Lee Enfield, others don't. Commercial businesses do not wish to be sued.

Edited to add: We used to say, and you have heard this too no doubt, "Just when you thought you made something idiot proof, they invent a better idiot."

One might consider that after a guy has burned 700 rounds through a barrel to develop a load. And when he expects to need a new barrel at 2500 rounds, a guy might just be loathe to needlessly experiment with new powders.

This is why I have never purchased any of the rifle powders introduced in the last fifteen years.

Thankyou, I had never heard of Gordon's.

Steve, The more information...in this case we are talking about pressure of a given powder charge with bullet X...they give us, the more we can make informed decisions about what loads will be safe in OUR rifle. That is in the interests of all concerned, tort lawyers and gun owners, IMO. What these decision makers, SAAMI and CIP, are doing now is assuming that since there MAY be someone out there that has a 1901 Remington Rolling Block in 7x57...that ALL 7x57 loads should be tailored to not blow up the 1901. And therein lies the problem...human nature will dictate that we all want our rifles to perform to their design parameters. If they are limited to 1901 tech, why buy modern rifles if the ammo is still 1901?
I say publish the pressure of every handload, it will make our sport safer and better. If you hold back pressure info, people will experiment.

This question is best posed to the cartridge or powder companies. 🙂

I understand what you are saying, but we both know who makes these decisions.

That's where Im at. Stocking up on Varget, H4350, H4831, True Blue, Xterminator and H110. Everything I need to load for I can shoot with these and still find them as of yesterday. They cover all my bases and I have records for other powders that I had in years past that I can refer to if I need to if I find something else cheap. I no longer mess around with different bullets or powders having fun looking for the best load. Those days are behind me, as I'm not willing to put the capital into it it'd require. I'm fortunate in that I was able to play around when I did.

No, powder burn-rate is not determined by a "closed bomb" test, though that's what QuickLoad uses (with one particular lot of powder) for their computer projections.

The present pretty-much-standard test in the powder industry is piezo-electronic testing, which does provide an inch-by-inch look at pressure during a bullet's trip down the barrel. This involves a SAAMI-standard barrel and chamber with a hole for a transducer drilled into the the barrel. (Some bullet companies use something like a Pressure Trace, which uses a detector essentially taped to the outside of the action--which also provides an electronic PSI rather than CUP or LUP read-out. If used correctly this results in a very close correlation with piezo pressures.)

Thanks for posting this...Who'da thunk it? Leave it to me to be 20 yrs behind the curve...even though I suspected they had something like this to engineer where and how large a gas port should be located.
In any case, the typical burn chart they give us is a skimpy piece of data compared to what they have gathered. We could use it to determine more efficient bbl lengths, silencer design, load development, all kinds of stuff. A lot of tech we take for granted today, was developed in workshops and garages.

The only problem here is, unless you use at least a chonograph, you have no idea how the pressure in your chamber compares to the pressures listed in the manual.

Yes, I do apreciate the manuals where pressures are listed. I recently mentioned working up 30-06 loads with a 190 and H4831, where I went above manual max loads.
But I used a chrono, and observed that my rifle produced the velocities/load weight as predicted.

Some barrels produce 300 fps higher velocity than other barrels with the same load. Higher velocity with the same load, in an equivalent length barrel, always comes as a product of increased pressure.

If you have one of these fast/high pressure barrels; and no measure of velocity, you could get in trouble assuming you have larger margins of safety to increase powder charge than are actual.

SAAMI specs take into account spikes. If a pressure is a fair bit lower than the cartridge specs, maybe that powder is spikey at a higher pressure.

You guys make some very good points ^^^^ Just in my own experience, I had some pressure excursions (as they like to call them) with good old 4320. Every thing is going fine, as powder increases...velocity increases on a nice smooth rising graph...then you reach a point adding powder and the graph goes vertical right now. Maybe that was a factor in discontinuing it, I don't know...but I much lament it's passing.

Simply put, quit dancing around at the ragged edge of max loads with any powder. You're not proving anything to anybody (Including yourself), and take burn rate charts, no matter their source, with a little grain of salt. They aren't, and never were, intended as gospel merely a comparison aid for the uninitiated. An anecdotal reference if you will.

This and buy the crap out of it before they decide to stop production of any powder that's working for you!

Yep, and just because a certain powder has a very similar burn-rate to another powder doesn't mean they'll work the same in different cartridges, or at different temperatures.

The last is why SAAMI maximum average pressure limits (MAPS) are well under what many handloaders would consider "safe" pressures because they're not seeing any traditional "pressure signs." Pressure can change considerably in different conditions, not just temperature but bore condition.

Which is why anybody who claims 2900+ fps with 180-grain loads are "safe" in their 22-inch barreled .30-06 is FOS, like the "real gunsmith" in his YouTube video that started the other recent thread. (Either that or their chronograph is FOS. Have run into a couple of those since I bought my first chronograph in 1979.)

I've had 4320 get a bit sporty on me, too. Love the stuff, but it can get a bit spicy when it's 90+ out and the load was worked up at 60-70°

I'm down to my last pound now, so sadly hot days probably won't be an issue with it for me much longer ☹️

zcm82,

Even the latest "temp-resistant" powders will gain some velocity (due to higher pressure) at temperatures over about 80 degrees. But they gain less than "standard" powders.....

The temp-resistant powders really shine in real cold, down around zero or colder. Between around 25-30 and 80 F. just about all available smokeless rifle powders are pretty consistent.

MD

Yep, the chrono shows pretty significant jumps on hot days with most of my loads on hot days. I am a bit cold blooded in nature, so I generally avoid shooting when it's over 80° or so to avoid melting, but once in a while the itch to burn powder overrides my good sense 😂 4320 was just the only one I'd had give me sticky extraction on hot days. I shoot pretty sedate loads for the most part.

As to cold; not much of an issue down here, but I got into the habit of avoiding ball powders like the plague in stuff much bigger than 223 Rem because of cold weather ignition problems with them when I was living in MN. I just recently cooked up some LeverEvolution loads for my 303 Savage, and that's the first slow burning ball I'd loaded for myself in years.

Just talked with Hodgdon, they told me we won’t be seeing Grand this year.

Imagine that another new product marketed but sorry you won’t see it for another year.

Hodgdon’s does not sell powder to “.gov”. They derive their revenues from the sale of powder to the sporting market. Hodgdon has stated such on their website for years.

The smokeless powder manufacturers who Hodgdon’s contracts to make their powder does sell to “.gov”.

I don’t like it that Hodgdon has gobbled up a huge share of the smokeless powder market in North America either.

The sporting market of primers, powder, and ammo make up a very small portion of the total volume—the world’s militaries have been and currently are the biggest buyers and consumers, by far.

No conspiracies needed.

I came across a news blurb today where a German defense ministry munitions audit discovered that, based on the Ukrainian experience with munitions consumption, the German army currently has approximately 2 days' worth of small arms ammo stocked.

Me thinks they'll soon be putting in a sizable order for ammo.

That might be one more day than the Canadian Army. And we have troops on the front line facing Russians.

C'mon Steve, we need some old, bold re-voters in Canada to rid ourselves of the complacent, old Liberal re-voters if we hope to continue with our freedom to reload our own! And that WILL take a BOLD Conservative at the helm! But BOLD and conservative isn't gonna happen in reloading nor in governance! I'm more on the BOLD side of matters in each!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Yea prices have dropped to about 72.00 per lb here in the local gunshop for the "Extreme" powders.....