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I have an Armalite AR-15 in 7.62x39. It has performed well and shot well for years.

I was testing some different powders with Nosler 123gr Varmageddon . Things when well until they didn’t.

Towards the end of the testing, it started to throw a first round flyer, gradually went from 1+ inches to 6 inches. Out of a five shot group I would get the first round 6 inches left and the next for in a 1 inch group.. This happened with more than one powder.

I returned home, cleaned the bore with Wipeout and swapped out the scope.

Same thing, No change.

What could be causing this? Do I need a new bolt?

Also, are 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 the same bolt?

Sounds like your barrel extension or the barrel nut is loose. Put the receiver in a vise, grab the barrel and twist it, see if it rotates at all.

6 inches is a lot. I'd be looking for something loose.

You swapped out the scope so rings must be tight. Is the mount tight? I'd check the Barrel nut.

Is this a high millage barrel? Who made it?

How many rounds on your bolt, who made it, and what does it look like? Gas key tight? Edge of the lugs still sharp or rounded? Any cracks? Firing pin retaining pin hole still round, or stretched?

Umm ,I hate to BUT...lets think. 6.5 grendel. Bullet diameter? Maybe 6.5 mm. 7.62x39 bullet diameter? Maybe 7.62 mm...
x 39 is parent case to PPC rounds which the Grendel is. its a 6.5 ppc renamed. Like having for whatever reason, to rename the 300/221 to the blackout...

Not the same rounds FWWI.

I too suspect something is loose. It sets itself on the first shot for a few rounds... and then you do things that make it go back to loose for the first shot. Its not all that uncommon for barrel nuts to not get tightened. Have seen it from top end builders even.

Sorry, I edited my OP

I was asking if the Grendel and the x39 use the same bolt.

If you change powder, charges and the bullet, it could easily be throwing shots. Clean her real good and go back to your old load. If you continue to have fliers with the old load, pull the hand guard and check the barrel nut. Plus the buffer tube nut, make sure the butt stock is locked up tight.
The Armalite is a good solid, stable platform. So would suspect the load differential first.

Started out with a clean bore (WipeOut).
I was testing CFE BLK compared to AA 1680, accuracy and velocity.

First five rounds 29.0gr CFE BLK 123gr Nosler.



Next five rounds, 29.5gr CFE BLK 123gr Nosler



Next five 27gr 1680, same bullet. BTW BLK is 80fps faster than 1680.



Then things started to go to hell. Fliers left and main group move slightly to the right.

I packed up and went home. Cleaned the bore, bolt, swapped out the scope and lubed it up.

I didn't take many pictures, but this is what I was getting with 29.5gr of CFE BLK so I decided to call it quites and contact you guys.

Have you checked the barrel nut yet?

I could not see that it was loose, but I’m no smith

Just dropped it off at my smith’s he is going to check it out

The weak point of your rifle is the bolt. That is what I'd suspect first, then it goes down the list as others have stated. Gas block, gas tube, barrel nut, bad barrel extension and scope or scope mounts.

It should be torqued to a minimum of 40 foot pounds.

Thanks

One of the reasons why I asked if the 6.5 Grendel and the x39 use the same bolt.

I have a Grendel, if they are the same I could just swap it out and test it

thats powder fouling at its finest at a glance. Clean barrel or not. Change powders or even different bullet jacket materials. Saw it often enough in highpower. First shot of a different powder or bullet could... be in the group. Or out of the group. Sometimes 2 rounds were out and then it settled.

That's what I thought. That's why I left the range and went home to clean the bore (WipeOut) and change the scope.

Next day with a clean bore and a different scope, the last target was the norm. I did not take very many pictures, but every five round mag fired, looked like the last target. some not quite so bad, but definitely big time flyers coming from the first round.

The next day I only tested one powder CFE BLK 29 and 29.5gr and two bullets, 123gr Nolser and 123gr SST. No change in powder on day two.

I got myAR back from the Smith.

He took it all apart, found nothing loose and put it back together.

Here is how it shoots now.



This is just one of many loads, this was better than most.

What else could cause this rifle to go from 1+ inches at 100 to 3 inches at 50.

It’s not the optics, I tried 3 different scopes and mounts.

Did you get the carbon out of the barrel? Carbon comes out as best I know, only by scrubbing with an abrasive. Carbon can do wild things until you get it out.
We finally realized when we shot a lot, to always soak a hot barrel with solvent before leaving the range to eat and drive a few hours home. Once carbon sets up its tough.

That or a piece of your barrel came out or something wild like that.

That's unacceptable for even a Mini 14.

Your barrel is trash or your upper is trash.

Accurate uppers can be had now for a couple hundred bucks.

I cleaned it with WipeOut several times.

The Smith took it apart and ran a scope down the bore, he said it looked OK, but cleaned it again.

Something is trash that's for sure, what do you mean by the Upper is trash?

Receiver, bolt, forend?

I'm looking for barrels right now, not a whole lot out their in X39.

Any suggestions?

I don't think it could easily be the upper parts but you never know.

Good to know the smith didn't see anything like a missing piece of barrel.

I am not sure after that. With less than say 3000 rounds in ax x39 barrel it should not be shot out.

I would hope that if the smith took it apart and put it back together he would have noticed anything loose or not right so to speak.

Fire lapping bullets would be my next move asap.

Once more though... carbon only comes out with abrasive. Not with foaming bubbles or whatever. Its sweat equity that got it out the times we had to deal with it. Once its set and hardened I just had no luck with simple chemicals. Even GM top engine cleaner.

I suppose you could swap bolts, but I also suppose not everyone has a couple of bolts of the same size laying around. I smile every time I find another. LOL.

Yes, same bolt.

Think I’ll swap out the BCG with my Grendel and take it out for a test drive tomorrow

Seems I'm out of date a bit. There are 2 types of 6.5 bolts. One is the same as the x39. The other is not. One is deeper faced and would be fairly different headspace.

Nothing like some idiot to mess up something that should be so simple. I suspect I know exactly who came up with this and why but thats another story totally.

I took a new ar out that did very similar. Picatinny rail seemed undersized when I was mounting scope with rings. Torqued everything and all felt good. At the range it would put two right next to each other and then fliers, 3"-6" WTH!
After checking all I could think of I decided to change out scope rings for a cantilever mount. Next time out groups were consistent 1.5 ish with no fliers.

Thanks,

I thought that might be the cause as well.

I have tried 3 different scopes with 3 different mounts, no change.

I have done the Tubbs lapping bullets before with good success, but those rifle never shot well right from the get go.

This one shot very well and suddenly went to schit.

It can't hurt. Especially since you don't know for sure that its not the barrel. It could take some life away by a bit. But if it won't shoot as is....

More work but interesting thought. Pull the barrel. Put it on another receiver and another bolt carrier and see. If its still bad, they its something with the barrel and back to lapping.

I've never bore scoped. Never wanted to see how bad things can look. Can you miss seeing carbon deposits? I'm back to that. They can be a PITA to get rid of without lots of elbow grease. They won't come with cleaners. They come out with scrubbing. They are a PITA to accuracy.

I ordered a new upper from BCA and also a new 20” 1-9.5 barrel from KAK.

if you want to sell that old barrel I might like to play with it next winter when I get to Texas for the winter. Just to see if I can figure it out. Obviously no rush.

Jeff, you keep mentioning removing carbon,

What did you find to work the best to do that?

JB bore paste but usually used diamond lap paste first. I don't recall the micron on the diamond at the moment. 6 may be one of the numbers. I am not sure I can put hands on that diamond paste at the moment to verify numbers but one was a bit aggressive followed by the finer and then by JB bore paste. Flitz can work I've heard.

The main thing we learned was swab the bore with solvent when its hot at a match. Drive home a couple hours and carbon can Harden and then it becomes horrible. Solvent never got it all out at that point.

Interesting enough we stuck with the same barrel brand mostly and it was only a barrel now and then that would develop carbon issues but those issues could drive you nuts until you realized oops. Carbon ring. We did go down to Pac Nor quality but that was about as low as we went.

If this new barrel fixes the problem, you can have the old barrel, all I ask is you pay shipping.

I’ll keep you posted on how things turn out.

Thats a deal for sure I can handle. I like to play with problem issues an the AR IF I can make time. Plus somewhere I still have a test bed upper with a wide smooth wood fore end floated. It was used to toss a new barrel on and fire some at 600 to verify it looked worth putting it on a service rifle upper. Especially the 1000 yard 223 uppers.

I took the New BCA upper to the range today, 100 yards.

After sighting it in this is the first 5 with 123ge Varmageddon, 29.0gr CFE BLK



This is 5 more for a total of 10. The flier at 1 O'clock was me.



This is 123gr Hornady FMJ with 27gr 1680.



I'm OK with this.

The new barrel should be ready to test by the end of the week, maybe.