Ten minute video about possible survivors of Custer’s battalion. Reon
"Preserving the Constitution, fighting off the nibblers and chippers, even nibblers and chippers with good intentions, was once regarded by conservatives as the first duty of the citizen. It still is." � Wesley Pruden
There is an interesting marker on the Rosebud Creek road maybe 10 miles south of the 94 for a body found there. This is not the road down to Colstrip but east of there, it’ll take you down to Ashland. I wish I’d taken a picture of it but it implies it was a soldiers remains found on the prairie there. I believe it was found long enough after the battle that uniform or other identifications were gone.
Could it have been a combatant of the fight, maybe a messenger sent back before the fight? How would one know. As Shrap illustrates there could have been others but how would one establish if they were actually with Custers detachment or part of the others? Great puzzle for sure. It seems very plausible that given the number of Custers overall force, when crap hit the fan some may have paniced and headed for the hills so to speak.
Being a conquered people and totally at the mercy of the victors within a year of this battle I think the natives were very guarded in answering any questions or making comments of that final battle. Sad that it was that way but nobody gave two shakes about posterity at that point, particularly the Indians.
Osky
The Nathan Short marker?
That’s the one.
Osky
A woman's heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth and I can find no sign on it.
Somewhere I read that a soldier escaped on horseback but, as the Indians were pursuing him, he blew his brains out with his handgun. Had he not done this, he would have escaped, was the insinuation.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
What would have been different had it not occurred?
Short answers no and nothing.
With the bison being eradicated the natives in any number were already being forced onto reservations. Many of the native trails leading to the Little Bighorn battlefield were made by natives who yearly came off the reservations to stay out and about for the summer months. They would return in the fall to the reservation due to lack of food. The number of “wild” Indians had dwindled drastically and were at numbers able to be harassing, but not a battle force. There was a noted mix of natives at the Little Bighorn, sans the Crows who were on the white side for the most part. This all took place on Crow land and Crow were enemies of Sioux and Cheyenne considering them trespassers. The Crow I think believed they were fighting to get all their land back when in reality they would end up with no more than what the whites gave them as a reservation. Originally, before other tribes were forced west the Crow considered most of Wyoming, souther Montana, and more to be their lands.
Osky
A woman's heart is the hardest rock the Almighty has put on this earth and I can find no sign on it.
What would have been different had it not occurred?
This was not a battle for the sake of fighting Indians, it was in response to making the Indians return to their respective reservations. Remember, this isn’t about abuse or persecution of the noble natives, it was about Indian relations with the conflicts of westward migration.
Indians were told to get back on their reservations by January 31, 1876 or they would be considered hostile. This battle was a result of the lack of cooperation of the Indians to that edict. Remember again, this is not about right or wrong, this is about dealing with the lives and perception of how this country was to be settled, not how to be politically correct in civilized management…
What would have been different had it not occurred?
It certainly seems to have put the big majority of the country in the mood to put an end to the Indian menace at a time when parts of the eastern states had folks seriously leaning toward sympathy with the Indian as the "noble savage".
The entire west would resemble Pine Ridge Agency had the Indian been left to pillage. By the 1800s they had horses, rifles, and whiskey and as Faulkner described the yankees and carpetbaggers a ''fierce will for rapine and pillage''.
They were not going to submit to civil government and have not even now.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you." Hebrew Roots Judaizer
This was not a battle for the sake of fighting Indians, it was in response to making the Indians return to their respective reservations. Remember, this isn’t about abuse or persecution of the noble natives, it was about Indian relations with the conflicts of westward migration.
Indians were told to get back on their reservations by January 31, 1876 or they would be considered hostile. This battle was a result of the lack of cooperation of the Indians to that edict.
For the Crow Scouts it was likely about opposing a lethal threat (Lakota, Cheyenne) to their people suddenly thrust into the heart of their home range.
One thing that occurs to me is the bewildering speed of change experienced by the Indians. Just eight years previously Red Cloud’s War had stalled White incursions. Now suddenly they were barred from whole geographic areas they had been accustomed to roam well within living memory and if they did go there subject to relentless pursuit by overwhelming force.
I forget who put it Whites like rising flood waters.
Settlement was an exponential process, faster and faster all the time.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
This was not a battle for the sake of fighting Indians, it was in response to making the Indians return to their respective reservations. Remember, this isn’t about abuse or persecution of the noble natives, it was about Indian relations with the conflicts of westward migration.
Indians were told to get back on their reservations by January 31, 1876 or they would be considered hostile. This battle was a result of the lack of cooperation of the Indians to that edict.
For the Crow Scouts it was likely about opposing a lethal threat (Lakota, Cheyenne) to their people suddenly thrust into the heart of their home range.
One thing that occurs to me is the bewildering speed of change experienced by the Indians. Just eight years previously Red Cloud’s War had stalled White incursions. Now suddenly they were barred from whole geographic areas they had been accustomed to roam well within living memory and if they did go there subject to relentless pursuit by overwhelming force.
I forget who put it Whites like rising flood waters.
Settlement was an exponential process, faster and faster all the time.
Few people are aware of what really happened verses revisionist history. Everone gets upset with the breaking of the Fort Laramie treaty of 1868 and opening the Black Hills to gold exploration and taking it away from the Sioux, who had lived there and were now forced out. No one seems to recognize that the Crow were there before the Sioux, who got uprooted from the midwest, and came to the Black Hills and evicted the Crow.
So now the US does the same to the Sioux and it becomes a scoundrelous act by an oppressive greedy government. At that time in history and in light of what the United States was involved with in western expansion, it was not considered such a grievious act.
To think that a culture of continuous advancements in technology and growth oriented individuals, would co-exist with an indigenous people stuck in the stone age, is not realistic in concept or action...
What would have been different had it not occurred?
By my crude calculations, about one third of the Army’s battle deaths in the 30 years or so of the “Indian Wars” occurred in this one battle.
Then there is General Crook, who was supposed to be another attachment of the Bighorn campaign, ran into Crazy Horse down on the Rosebud and in that engagement, shot 25,000 rounds of ammunition and hit about 12 Indians. Feeling tired and out of ammo, Crook decided to go back to Fort Fetterman, lick his wounds and go fishing. No one has ever considered his malfeasence in this particular lack of engagement...
"The Seventh was divided into factions, and this I believe brought about the massacre of five companies, and the siege against the others. I believe that had Benteen acted quickly upon the orders, he may have been able to save at least some of Custer’s battalion. Benteen had a hard on for Custer, and he took it to the grave."
That sums it up, 7mm.
From looking at the battlefield, Custer ended up on a bare ridge. When the Indians managed to ride around and attack from all sides, his position was indefensible. If Benteen had managed to reach Custer with his companies and the packs his men probably would have been killed also.
As it was, when Benteen encountered Reno’s retreating troops in a more defensible location, he was able to organize a defensive position that saved the rest of the 7th cavalry.
As you suggest, Benteen with his companies and the pack train held the key to survival for whichever unit he assisted.
Whether his decision to join with Reno was a sound battlefield decision by an experienced officer or a result of his dislike of Custer is a question for scholars.
"The Seventh was divided into factions, and this I believe brought about the massacre of five companies, and the siege against the others. I believe that had Benteen acted quickly upon the orders, he may have been able to save at least some of Custer’s battalion. Benteen had a hard on for Custer, and he took it to the grave."
That sums it up, 7mm.
From looking at the battlefield, Custer ended up on a bare ridge. When the Indians managed to ride around and attack from all sides, his position was indefensible. If Benteen had managed to reach Custer with his companies and the packs his men probably would have been killed also.
As it was, when Benteen encountered Reno’s retreating troops in a more defensible location, he was able to organize a defensive position that saved the rest of the 7th cavalry.
As you suggest, Benteen with his companies and the pack train held the key to survival for whichever unit he assisted.
Whether his decision to join with Reno was a sound battlefield decision by an experienced officer or a result of his dislike of Custer is a question for scholars.
I don't know if I'm a scholar, but after much study on this whole battle, I have concluded that Benteen was a consummate soldier, quite capable of any battle he pitched into. His record supports this. I do not think he would have let Custer die for any reason of hatred or dislike...
Then there is General Crook, who was supposed to be another attachment of the Bighorn campaign, ran into Crazy Horse down on the Rosebud and in that engagement, shot 25,000 rounds of ammunition and hit about 12 Indians. Feeling tired and out of ammo, Crook decided to go back to Fort Fetterman, lick his wounds and go fishing. No one has ever considered his malfeasance in this particular lack of engagement...
Crook it seems should have sent messengers in an arc around to the east of the Indians to warn the others coming in from the north as part of their three pronged attack. But not a word of condemnation of Crook is ever heard much less a court martial.
Some of the accounts I've read said the Indians thought Reno's attack was Crook returning.
If Custer would have just continued up the Rosebud he would have encountered evidence of the Rosebud battle. But as my old uncle liked to say "if ifs and buts were candy and nuts what a different world it would be".
I guess the burning tepee and the dead Indian Custer's troops found on the Indian trail should have been a hint that something bad had happened to the south. Like a battle.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you." Hebrew Roots Judaizer
I don't know if I'm a scholar, but after much study on this whole battle, I have concluded that Benteen was a consummate soldier, quite capable of any battle he pitched into. His record supports this. I do not think he would have let Custer die for any reason of hatred or dislike...
I agree 100% and I don't blame Benteen for being a bit sore about the criticism he received from some quarters. He came to the battle and acted with the information he had and in response to what he could see.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you." Hebrew Roots Judaizer
Your scholarship regarding the Little Bighorn Battle is well known and respected. I appreciate your opinion and your contributions to this discussion.
Regarding General Crook’s fight on the Rosebud, I think it is important to understanding the Little Bighorn Battle, but I really don’t know what to make of it.
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