Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Captain Thomas Weir, 7th Cavalry

Wonder how much ammo the troopers had?

I recently visited the Little Big Horn National Park where Custer made his last stand, it's a chilling experience! I would encourage anyone who may find themselves in the area to give it a visit. Custer was overconfident and had little or bad intel regarding Indian #'s present.

shrapnel: What is your estimation of Major Reno and his conduct during the 2 days in question. I noticed that Benteen made a very brief report and referred further comments and reports to Reno.

Was Reno actively participating other than that charge when the Indians were moving in too close.

So little is written about the Rosebud fight compared to LBH, but what I have read, I find fascinating and the battlefield is totally undisturbed. That would have been something to see in action.

Sure seems to have been a lot going on there at that battle. Standing there gives a whole new perspective.
Thru that summer period the agency’s new full well how many had left the reservations to join the Indians who had refused reservation living. Indians didn’t make it a secret of where they were going and where the meet up was, on the LBH somewhere. It was known to the military and hence the pincer movement was planned. Custer from the east, Gibbon from the north, Crook from the southeast, mountains to the west.

Point being Crook knew a lot and what to expect, his scouts made him aware of the big encampment to the northwest, and some records even say the scouts ranging to the northwest could hear the LBH battle taking place.
There the guy stayed at Goose creek? With a thousand soldiers plus civilians.

I know that country between LBH and the Rosebud battle fairly well. It’s not easy country. I do not know the exact trail the Indians took to and from thru that mess but it’s gotta be 35 miles as the crow flies. To me that would be very interesting.

Osky

Trying to stick to eyewitness accounts and not hearsay, it is my opinion that Reno showed poor leadership in his engagement from start to finish. He had already been chastised for not following an Indian trail several days earlier when he was told to follow the trail and engage the Indians should he find them. It is truthfully better that he didn't find them, or he may never survived.

It is well documented that he was unnerved and fell apart at the river, once Bloody Knife was killed. His orders to mount/dismount and confused commands to the point it was every man for himelf, further indicates poor leadership. At the time all of this was happening a scout by the name of George Herendeen had taken refuge in the timber by the river and saved the lives of more than a dozen troopers as he kept them safe until they could join reno's beaten battalion on the top of the bluff.

Reno was certainly rattled and fortunate that Benteen showed up when he did, as he pleaded with Benteen to stay with him and save him from the Indians. Benteen did notify Reno at the time of his meeting, that he was to continue on in support of Custer. Benteen could see how deperate the situation was and probably saved the hill top with his organizational skills and tenacity.

It is also recorded that at one time Reno had suggetsted leaving the wounded in the makeshift hospital grounds and run for safety. Few people are aware of this and exhuastive research helps to qualify these actions as truthful.

I think this statement by Benteen is damning and it is no wonder Reno spent most of the rest of his life trying to clear his name. It was not an underserved tarnish on his record...

A couple other accounts that help qualify certain aspects of constant debate. George Herendeen was an accomplished scout and knew Montana's terrain well. He had been on an expedition to the Bighorn area 2 years previously and engaged many Indian conflicts on the way. His accounts are extremely reliable.

Lt Godfrey, who later became General Godfrey, also qualified the advance on the Little Bighorn due to frontier conditions, not Custer's arrogance and often misquoted zeal to kill Indians...

I read somewhere that the Reno-Benteen battalions expended 36,000 rounds. I would suppose the Indians were running low. If they had not been able to acquire some of the rifles and ammo carried by Custer's battalion they would have run short a lot sooner I figure. The Springfields would have been superior weapons for longer ranges than the Indian muzzle loaders and lever rifles.

Again, it is better to quote than suppose. This accounts for both the amount of ammunition per trooper and a statement of Indian arms. So often people run off at the mouth and claim how well armed the Indians were, even moreso with repeating rifles...

Going from memory here, so I could be wrong.
IIRC, each trooper carried 60 rounds for the Springfield 1873 cavalry carbine on his person or in saddlebags.
In addition they had the Colt SSA revolver with 24 rounds.
These guys didn’t get a lot of trigger time though. In garrison, they seldom did much range shooting.
I’m sure there were some pretty good shots among them, but on average the warriors were pretty safe considering…
Also , the Springfields took copper cased ammo, and in field conditions, often failed to extract. Then they’d have had to use a knife or a rod to knock the fired cartridge case out.
Historians are somewhat divided on the failure to to extract making a difference in the battle.
There was a prairie fire in 1983, which allowed battlefield detectives to recover quite a few expended cases.
I think around 1 in 4 showed evidence of the trooper using a knife to extract.
When you got a bunch of wild savages intent on lifting your hair, a failure to extract would pose a problem!😀
Reon

Still can’t post the video direct!🤬
Reon
Battlefield Detectives

Archaeogist son did get to do a bit of work with this fellow down at Palo Alto battlefield here in Texas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_D._Scott

Shrapnel: Once upon a time I read a writing (maybe a letter) by Capt. Benteen in which he described the goings on at the Indian camp that first night. In essence he remarked on how the Indians had departed from their usual economy in firewood use and were burning large fires that night. Do you think that might have been in anticipation of a plan to hold down the Reno-Benteen soldiers the next day while the non combatants were packing to leave? Do you think there was a plan that night to retreat the next day and therefore no need to conserve wood?

I understand it would have been a bonus if they could have killed off the surviving soldiers but the Indian tactics must have been fairly timid considering that if the roles were reversed the army soldiers would have reduced that position rather quickly using military tactics.

Very interesting video. It seems to contradict a few things mentioned previously in this thread, with scientific certainty.

Osky

They hated Copernicus too!

From what I understood from the video, there was no last stand .

Nope, doesn’t seem like it. The story with a last heroic stand played better to the public. To this day there are some who keep Custers myth on a golden pedestal. So be it.

Osky

Another pretty good video.
Custer’s Last Trooper

I will second 257Bob’s comment. If you have a chance visit the battlefield. Sitting on the back veranda of the visitor center and listening to the ranger describe the battle while you look over the terrain makes many things clear. Riding the battlefield road and seeing the small white markers where soldiers fell and were initially buried gives a sense of the confusion and desperation that must have prevailed. Walking around the Reno-Benteen position and imagining the troopers trying to scrape the dirt with mess gear to create a little semblance of a firing position while suffering from the heat and thirst and expecting to be overrun at any moment. The place speaks to you almost a century and a half later of desperation and suffering and courage.

We passed by again this past summer, but could not stop. I didn’t realize from our first visit 25 years ago that you can see from I-90 the cemetery and the flag up on the bluff.

Outstanding.