Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .45 ACP +P Speer Gold Dots...Not Impressed!

Actually, I am impressed...but I thought I'd post this link to a friend's thread on another site. Note that this 185 grain bullet did not exit the torso of a modestly sized bobcat, yet the performance was terrific.

http://www.modernsportsman.com/cgi-...ns&action=display&num=1199375255

230 grain ball would have exited and probably had the same effect, but performance shouldn't be measured by whether or not a bullet exits a cavity...!

Dan

Yeah but how thick was that bobcat? About 5-6"? I agree we cannot always measure performance based on an exit hole but Im kind of shocked it did not punch through.

I had a marlin camp rifle in .45 and loaded the old 200gr speer inspector to over 1100fps and it would leave nasty holes in coyotes. I dont recall it not exiting unless it was a full length shot.

I'm not impressed. Cats tend to be pretty "soft" and actually a bit fragile to the effects of bullets. A 15 yard shot between the shoulders of a small bobcat with no exit doesn't thrill me at all. Especially for a .45 caliber bonded core bullet of 185 grains leaving the muzzle at 1,100 fps and impacting such a small light skinned and boned animal at only 15 yards. I wouldn't trust them for self defense...

My point...if there is one, is that what we come to expect from certain ammunition isn't always the case. Each case is different, as is each target, as is each shooter. To look to one shooting, one instance and brand a certain ammunition as unworthy, when other shootings suggest it is very worthy, is a foolish exercise. Don't read too much into this shooting. Yes, a bobcat isn't really a large or thick skinned animal. I once punched a .36 caliber ball from a Navy revolver completely through a good sized fox's chest at about 10 yards. The animal ran about 50 or 60 yards after the hit but died. I'm not necessarily an advocate of the .36 Navy as a defensive arm - despite what Wild Bill was able to accomplish with one - but in that one instance, it was adequate. In this instance, was the projectile not adequate? What did the shooter expect? What do we expect? This is a round that boasts maximum expansion against clothed tissue. Well, it certainly proved up to the expansion hype. So, if there was a failure, what was it? Between the shoulders from an elevated stand indicates a probable spine hit. I've only had one .45-70 projectile fail to exit a deer and it was because of a spine hit. In this instance, I don't believe there was a failure. It worked perfectly.

Dan

Dan, thank you for posting that link. The pictures of the recovered bullet pretty much tell the tale, it expanded big time, looks like it retained most of its weight. It's always nice to see a recovered bullet that hit something other than "test" media. Give an atta boy to your friend, that was a good shot. I was thinking along the lines that there should have been an exit as well, but one things for sure, it dumped all the energy into the cat. Any good estimate how far it actually penetrated?

No idea, but that cat's torso isn't all that thick...though it probably looks a bit thinner all stretched out like that.

Dan

I think that�s great performance from that bullet. Picture perfect expansion and very limited penetration. What I look for in a 185 grain .45 ACP is rapid expansion and shallow penetration, and that�s exactly what that bullet did. The idea is to minimize the risk of over-penetration on a crowded street, apartment building or home with people sleeping in adjoining rooms. Remember, hollow points respond to hydraulic pressure, which is what causes them to expand. A Bobcat may be small, but they�re very muscular, and muscle is full of water. Therefore you get excellent hydraulic resistance to the bullet, which results in perfect expansion. The lack of penetration is caused by:

1. The huge frontal diameter of the expanded bullet (I�ll hazard a guess of about .70 diameter) which offers tremendous resistence
2. Complete lack of sectional density of the 185 Gold Dot bullet.

I think much of the problem with handgun bullet expectations for defensive use, is the FBI standards. The FBI standards place a very heavy emphasis on penetration even after passing through intermediary objects such as a fence post or car windshield, and these standards make sense for LE officers on duty. But a cartridge that will still give 12� of penetration in ballistic gelatin after going through a car window might not be the best choice for those of us defending our home.

Most of the 230 grain bullets of today probably penetrate a bit much for concealed carry or home defense. Most would be better armed with a 185 or 200 grain bullet to put the breaks on penetration. If you don�t expect to have to shoot through walls, fences, car doors or car windshields, then all of that penetration power of the 230 grain loads becomes a liability, rather than an asset.

Finally, it doesn�t take 12� of penetration to incapacitate a human being. On frontal shots, you can make quite lethal wounds with just 3� of penetration. The one shot that does require some penetration is the side shot where you have to penetrate through an arm. But here�s the kicker, just keep shooting�eventually, the bad guy will turn to investigate the source of those pesky 185�s chewing up the side of his torso and arm.

Thank you Kevin. I hope you realize my thread title was tongue in cheek.

Dan

Ah but, you can't guarenty only frontal shots in a defensive encounter, and that why a bit more penetration is desired, just ask the dead FBI agents in the infamous Miami shoot out...

Wouldn't it be better to ask the living FBI agent from the infamous Miami shootout, who ended it one handed with a .38 special snubby? Penetration wasn't so much the issue as marksmanship. With the exception of the Mini-14, the bad guys and good guys were pretty much armed exactly the same! The difference was preparedness and willingness...not bullet styles.

Dan

Acctualy he ended it with a 12 guage before he walked over to the car with the 38.. The main bad guy was hit early on and was bleeding down from a hit with inadequate peneteration to reach the heart......He was hit in the right bicept in line with thwe heart, but not eniough penetration to reach the heart.. You can shot all of the shallow penetrating rounds that you wish and if you get lucky and get a shopt presntation that allows a lethal shot with minimal penetration, then you'll do just fine. A bullet should have enough penetration to reach the vitals even when the angle requires more than the chest of a Bobcat, which is not very impressive..

Actually, he fired several shots with the 12ga, but still had to finish it with his .38! Still and all, with the exception of the Mini 14, the good guys and bad guys were pretty much armed the same! The Mini 14 was the main difference in the outcome! All of which brings us back to the 185 grain Gold Dot at 1100fps. I could never understand why someone would carry a gun with a .45 caliber bore, and limit themselves to 185 grain bullets! If one wants to shoot 185 grain bullets, get a .357!

My friend's choice of ammo wouldn't be my choice of ammo, but in the other "not impressed" thread, the Gold Dot was touted as being a far better round than the one that predicated the thread. In essence, it may be no better or worse and again, my contention is that one shooting and one result is a foolish way to determine the worth of a cartridge.

Regards

Dan

When I first bought a Model 60 S&W I took it outside and fired at a squirrel sitting on a branch. He slumped but did not fall off the branch. I chuckle when I hear people discussing "knockdown power". I am not impressed with a 2" 38 special at all, except that it fits in my pocket pretty nice.

Well, I'm a Whelen nut as well. We buy certain guns for reasons. The .38 snub gun has always had good penetration, with the right round, however the right rounds for penetration seldom gave the expansion people were looking for. Same with the .45acp. Ball penetrates all to heck, but it doesn't expand. "Experts" decided that there had to be something called "energy dump" so that all the energy was expended in the body cavity. So, they come up with maximum energy dump and "experts" claim that there's not enough penetration. In the mean time, things getting shot with these bullets keep dying!

I can load a my 8mm Mauser with cast lead at a paltry 1600fps and it will without a doubt, shoot through a deer 90% of the time. So, why would I need 2500fps? I shoot a 130 grain truncated cone with my .38 snub gun that will easily reach the vitals on a car hit deer and has done so. It reaches the vitals! What more is needed?

A gun goes off and an animal dies and the bullet mushrooms just like it should, pretty as a picture. Still, people complain.

Dan

So you actually bought into the FBI's BS line of, "It was the 9mm Silvertip?"

FBI agents were lost because they stood in front of a man with a Mini 14 who knew how to use it.

Even if the Silvertip in question would have made it to the heart (it was less than 1" shy IIRC), it wouldn't have changed the outcome of that fight one iota.

I still feel that only through the grace of God any of those agents survived...they started off so far behind they were not even in the race to start with.

Full expansion or not Im still suprised a 185+p would not make it through a bobcat.

I'd lay odds it first had to smash through the spine and even in a cat, bones slow things down.

Dan

I am a good bit surprised on this one. Wow....

Before anyone asks how many 'cat autopsies I've been in on, it's more than a few. Just clarifying.

I haven't shot anything with the GoldDot 185 loads, but I have with the heavier .45ACP GoldDot loads. They go through a lot of stuff (including deer shoulders, full rib cages, and at least one headshot - got hit by a car and I was only a couple back from the accident). I would have certainly expected the 185 GoldDot to go through a very lightly built, and thin body cavity like a bobcat. Even if it had to go through the spine first. By the looks of that bullet, it certainly did.

Very interesting.

I personally want more penetration than that, and will likely stick to the heavier GoldDot loads for my wife's .45.

"If you can't see the problem, there ain't much that can be done to educate you on it."

Hmmmm, where have I seen that post before? Can you see where that might set a person off?

Heavier will "always" be better. My .35 Whelen will shoot 180 grain bullets...but it's never had one in the chamber. It positively loves 250 grain bullets! My .45acps have never digested anything below 225 grains. My .45 Colts, nothing below 150 grains. It makes no sense to go up in caliber to go down in bullet weight.

On the other hand, the human heart can be reached with a 4" blade! The lungs with 3" of steel. I believe the 185 Gold Dot should be able to handle that chore, even after penetrating a rib or sternum. If you have to go in under the arm, or from the sides, all bets are off. A human spine would no doubt sever, but the bullet would probably not go much farther.

Dan

Dan, is all your information based on naked people? It's January and where I like people are wearing leather, wool, and various other outer wear, as well as their regular clothing against the skin. You pack what you want, but to suggest that perhaps there is only a need for 4" of penetration doesn't make much sense to me. I stoke my .45 ACP's with 230 grains of bullet.