Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Captain Thomas Weir, 7th Cavalry

History indicates that Custer failed to properly estimate the size of the enemy force and put himself and his men in a desperate defensive action against an overwhelming force.
The more I study Custer, the more I see the multiple bad decisions that were made and how they led to the disaster at LBH.
Can a leader make all these documented mistakes, jeopardizing his command and still be revered as a hero in the action ?
Benteen was able to save the remainder of the 7th.
Who was the better commander that day ?

To paraphrase the Wizard.

The mule knows

These questions are so random, they don’t make sense. Custer had horses, not ponies and they were good cavalry mounts. The pack train was mules and mules would never keep up with the advance of Custer’s horses. Custer was ahead of the mules, not trying to keep up.

What does what a horse has to eat, have to do with the advance to the Little Bighorn?

What are you referring to about dismounting for a skirmish line and fleeing on foot?


Retreat and return another day? Good Lord, you have either read too many books or not enough…

This has been discussed quite thoroughly, and,it appears your hatred for Custer lies mostly in hyperbole and lack of understanding 19th century Cavalry and fighting Plains Indians…

Custer may have been quite the Indian fighter. He wasn’t that day.

He had many warnings of the hostile forces, he disregarded them.

He split is command into multiple factions, no acknowledging the superior force.

He promised his support to Reno should he need it, all Reno got was Custers dust. No wonder he disliked him.

The hottest summer any could remember he had his troop on the leather since 3:00 am, came over from the Rosebud camp which had been a hard push, that’s not flat country, and attacked at the hottest point in the day to a wide awake village. A village that do to the heat more than likely had most braves in the shade of the teepee, arms nearby. Response time couldn’t have been much faster. The soldier mounts were weak at best. Not a lot of water between the Rosebud and the Little Bighorn.
You only need to look at the cattle drives of that era and after to note the size of the accompanying horse herd. Cowboys would use three, and sometimes four mounts in a single hot day and that’s moving at a cows walking pace. Those troopers were pushed harder than that.

There are other common sense observations of Custers decisions that day but I do not put the final fall of that northern detachment under Custer at his feet. There are native accounts of the lead most portion of Custers command making it down to the river and were there first repulsed involving a leader who was shot down and quickly put back over a saddle by others and then the hill retreat began. There is no doubt in my mind Custer would have been leading, and was shot right there. Anyone else shot around him would not have stopped the entire advance. Resistance wasn’t that heavy there yet.
As much as I disagree with him being such a glorified leader I don’t think were Custer of full faculty or in control that retreat would have been as scattered and unorganized as the evidence would show. He was better than that.
They report he had two wounds, one in the chest and one in the temple region. I think he may have been alive but unconscious during the uphill retreat and towards the end a trooper made sure he didn’t suffer at the hands of the natives.

Like every one else barring none, I wasn’t there.

Osky

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No, no. Not at all.
I do not have hatred for Custer.
That is somehow your misinterpretation of what I have posted and I certainly did not mean to convey that.
From reading your posts, you think Custer was a hero and that of course is your privilege.
I can't make the jump to "hero" in regards to the action on 7/25/1876 at LBH.
I read the reports and see a series of mistakes that led to the disaster.
This entire event is about leadership, in my opinion.
There are still many things that you will never know and that I will never know.
For example, did Custer kill himself ? We will never know.

And then there’s the spiritual aspect. You may say it was destined to happen.
According to Sitting Bulls vision of soldiers falling upside down into camp, “these were given to you because they had no ears”.

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Those are good observations, Osky.
You speak like you've led men.

The first day Custer rode a brisk March of 12 miles. They averaged 3 miles per hour. They would ride one hour, walk for 1/2 hour. They had 630 horses ( not ponies ) , and 140 mules. ( it is estimated it took 3 hours a day to care for them, and 200 acres of “ pasture”) which required 24 hour surveillance.

At 5 am the next day they did 32-35 miles. They began following Indian sign. There was not much forage left as each warrior had 3 head of ponies, these ponies were perhaps better suited to the dry parched grass than the grand “ Calvary mounts”.

The next day was 28 miles. Not only was feed scarce, the water was un drinkable.

At 1945 on June 24 1876 , the column stopped at the busby bend of the Rosebud creek.

Custer most likely had not slept for over 30 hours……ordered the column to move at 2300 hours. They climbed 1700 feet of elevation and stopped to rest at 0315 at Davis creek. Again the water was un drinkable. Custer left the main troop and went on with his scouts.

At 1050 hours Custer returned and ordered an attack. He wanted to move immediately upon the village.

“We were tired, and dirty and hungry. Our horses hadn’t had a drink of good water since the day before; and we weren’t much better off.” Corporal Windolph


This amount of travel doesn’t consider the extra reconnaissance that Reno’s troop endured.

How on earth can one believe “ These were fit horses?”

How also with the facts that they were following the processions of the enemy, the lack of forage left showing the enormous amount of ponies, and the scouts estimate of 1500 Warriors could one conclude that Custer made the most excellent decisions and was not negligent in his command?

30 % of these warriors had repeating rifles/carbines.

Did the army call that a "remuda"?

Custer was a Civil War hero, not mine. I have a lot of admiration for his life accomplishments which escapes many people. It was hard for America to understand how a decorated Civil War hero could meet such an end by plains savages. This was in the centennial year of our Declaration Of Independence. It was shocking and discussed as such. Later adjustments to his accomplishments in the 50’s and 60’s, created a different image of Custer.

Growing up in Montana, and having a county, a forest and town named for some idiot that got killed by Indians, always left me wondering, how and why. I had a keen interest in the Custer Battle since I was a kid. Visiting the battlefield and fishing on the Little Bighorn River for catfish, peaked my interest even more.

While catfishing on the Little Bighorn in the early 70’s I found my first 50-70 case near the river. Increasing my interest considerably, I continued on with my education of Custer and the battle. It was in the years following that I came to understand Custer for what he was and not for how he was remembered.

That study led to many discoveries of Custer’s life and his battlefield experiences. I admire his tenacity and energy, unequalled by many of his contemporaries. I have posted references throughout this series supporting my observations and most arguments against him are from questionable sources and hearsay.

Was Custer perfect? Not hardly, there are instances where his performance in his capacity as a post Civil War soldier were deplorable. Trying to be objective which will bring a more positive light to who Custer really was, it is still my conclusion, Custer was a tireless and energetic leader with few capable of staying with him.

Would I have wanted to serve under him, absolutely not. But I do know why Phil Sheridan counted on him for the ability he had to get things done…

I’m not a Custer fan myself 🤣👍

I think if you watch the movie thats posted here.

You will see they found no evidence of Custer being repelled by the river.

Page 8 posted by direct drive.


They postulate his troop pursued the running women and children. And upon their return formed a skirmish line.

It went downhill from there, pardon the pun.

A fool will cling to a preconceived notion after he’s shown evidence to the contrary.
As I said, I thought Custer a glory hound who led his command to death pursuing the glory he wanted.
But the more I read, the more I realized that that preconceived notion was wrong.
People judge Custer’s life from what happened on the last few hours of it, ignoring the many wise decisions and heroic actions of the past.
I once thought that Grant was nothing but a head down butcher, from the results of The Overland Campaign. But studying Grant’s war record will show that he was a pretty savvy general. The strategies and tactics show that in his earlier campaigns, and he recognized the shortest way to end the war in 1864/5’was to bleed Lee dry. I know the casualty list caused him a lot of pain. Other officers often found him weeping over it.
For what he did to shorten the war, I admire him, and for Custer’s accomplishments I admire him as well.
Reon

Did you know President Grant was arrested. Trump was not the first!

He was drag racing his buggy!


But for the Custer deal…….

Pushing Horses 90 miles in 3 days… in 85 degree weather …..no water , little feed ……..


You gotta be a special breed to think that dogs gonna hunt.

Grant wont a saint

Yeah, I read that! IIRC he pleaded guilty and paid the fine.
Had he been around the P-ville Summer Nationals in the ‘80s we’d have probably lined them up!
As to the condition of Custer’s horses I can’t say. I figure they’d have been played out, but the horses I know are in engines. I’ll take Herendeen’s word for it, but they’d have had to been tired. One cannot deny the last couple days of Custer’s march.
Reon

What he got right at the Washita was surprise a sleeping camp at dawn in the winter. What he also did right is take around fifty women and children prisoner. Once engaged he found there were more Indians along the Washita River than he knew of (shades of the LBH??) and was forced to disengage in a hurry, before he knew the whereabouts of his Second in Command Major Joel Elliot and 16 men.

It is true that Elliot charged off without Custer’s knowledge and they were likely dead before Custer could have saved them anyway

IIRC the presence of those captives forestalled any retaliatory attacks by the Indians during Custer’s withdrawal.

Just to clarify; taking a bunch of living women and kids prisoner was an effective way to restrain their menfolk from attacking further and to cause them to return to the reservation.

the story of the Ree scout where he mentions coming upon 3 different soldiers whose horses had gave out spoke volumes. at least some animals were very stressed.