Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Pay and play - Ruger or S&W or other

Long post here, but need a setup before the main question.

Looking to get an AR-15 or possibly a Ruger PC9. Bought an FN-15 clone of an M16A4 a few years ago and it was a neat rifle but eventually did not meet my needs and was sold. So here is my criteria, more or less in order:

1a. Home defense
1b. Target shooting/plinking
2. Preferably under $1000 out the door. Not looking to go as cheap as possible but the more under, the more I have to spend on a good prism sight.
3. Unknown reaction of citizenry to totalitarian government.
4. Buy it and shoot it, don't want to assemble it.

There's a 100% probability that plinking at steel and paper will take up 99.99% of this firearm's life. But it must be an excellent choice for home defense, that's the primary justification for this since I have a bunch of other firearms that work very well for 1b.

Regarding #3, it used to seem far fetched but you never know, ya know?

For #1, 2 and 4 I'm seriously considering another Ruger PC9 9mm because of cheap ammo, dependability and the basic rifle style model 19100 points like your index finger. Had one five years ago and sold it for reasons which don't seem as smart now as they did then. But it's basically a .22 on steroids, both trajectory and power poop out much beyond 100 yards. $615 out the door at a local store.

So, I'm looking hard at one of these three.
Ruger AR-556 MPR Model 8514. 18" barrel, rifle length gas system, M-Lok forend. $879 out the door.


S&W M&P 15 Sport II. 16" barrel, carbine gas system. One model optics ready no sights, the other in standard M4 configuration with fixed front sight and Magpul MBUS rear. $733 and $763 respectively.


Handled the Ruger and the S&W with no sights today. I like the idea of the 18" barrel and rifle gas system on the Ruger but the aluminum handguard makes it muzzle heavy, the S&W in either configuration with the standard hand guards is lighter, handier and feels better in the hand.


Which finally gets to my question.

Is there anything really wrong about these? I know Ruger's quality control on their SP101 revolvers sucks and S&W double action revolvers aren't all they could be these days, but being an AR15 noob these two companies are known quantities to me, they generally stand behind their products and the rifles come ready to shoot without mods. Plus these models are readily available in local stores to look at and handle.

Since everybody and their brother's dog makes AR's, including Colt, is there another brand I should consider? I'm going to mount a prism sight on whatever I get so does a fixed front sight get in the way?

Would a Ruger PC9 be the better choice? It's good to 100 yards and less likely to penetrate three houses plus it won't completely blow your eardrums out if fired indoors, only leave them ringing for a couple of hours. But it's only good (really effective) to 100 yards. See #3 above.

An AR is far more powerful, has far more range and penetration; without a suppressor it would be absolutely nasty indoors with either barrel length and especially so if multiple rounds were fired, but it's the modern standard by which all other self defense firearms are judged.



Your comments are invited and welcomed, which is why this is posted in the first place.

IF, and that's a big IF, you are truly concerned with using it for HD, I wouldn't pick any of those. Spend just a bit more and get something nicer for that, since it sounds like this will be a one and done for you. But if you absolutely can't, get the S&W. As far as the prism and a fixed front sight, that's a no go IMO. Red dots can co-witness, and scopes work fine with just a bit of shadow from the front sight, but prisms show the whole thing, and it's magnified a bit, even the 1x models.

I'm REALLY liking my Ruger MPR. It's a good all around AR. The shorter barreled standard rifle is probably a better pure defensive rifle and is a little cheaper.

If you're looking at a PCC I'd STRONGLY suggest this S&W. I bought one a week ago and love it. Be sure to click on "View Gallery" for better pics.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

Street price was just over $600. The barrel folds making for a VERY compact package, just over 16", and it comes with a discrete carry case. Comes with two 23 round mags and a 17 round mag that will also fit a 9mm M&P pistol. There is storage for 2 spare mags inside the stock giving 63 rounds onboard.

I put a Holosun sight on it zeroed at 50 yards with 1 1/2 groups and still managed under 2" at 100 yards.

Buy a colt 6920

The brake on that MPR is grossly and literally deafening. Just a warning, before you decide to buy it. Good luck with your decision.

If you're not sold on an AR and you did mention a PCC in 9mm - here's a thought.

RCH over budget

Ruger did want AR15s banned in the 80s. Worked with the government to do it too.

Just saying.

Regardless almost anything is pretty decent these days.

I'd just buy whatever but put 1000 rounds through it before you trust it.

If not buy the Colt as noted, I've yet to see a bad one. But I've seen em with in accurate barrels and horrible triggers but they go bang all the time.

Or buy one of the more custom.

FWIW I have no issues fighting with a parts lower and BCA upper that I've run through the ringer at this point.

All has to be your call.

2 of the 3 Ruger MPRs I've owned have been signficantly sub MOA rifles with the right handloads. The first wasn't as good on average but had the single most accurate load. The current one hasn't delivered quite the accuracy with any one load but it'll shoot .75" or better with every 55 grain hornady other than the VMAX and a max load of H335. The middle gun was merely MOA.

The comment about the loudness of the "blast enhancer" is spot on. I got into a tight spot with a cougar out in the yard and mopped up with the MPR. I was standing around behind a tree for cover and for using it for a rest. Like to blew my fooooooking eardrums out. The "blast enhancer" came off and was replaced with a thread protector. It's still loud as "f" but to me not as disturbing. Before the switch, one Saturday I'd been out shooting. A guy I work with runs cows about 3 miles up the mountain. Somehow "weekend" came up and he asked if I knew what monster rifle someone had been shooting. We started dialing in on time. I know there's a guy who shoots a braked .460 and I thought it might be him. Nope, it was me with the MPR.

The only thing I would do different if getting another AR-15 is consider a 16" barrel instead of 18" barrel. (I would be real tempted by .300 blackout though.) And nothing wrong with a PCC in concept. I don't have one but I'm ... pondering. I kinda like lever actions in that role for my current uses but in the case of "social unrest" a good 9mm PCC with a couple buckets full of 124 grain +P JHPs would be a comforting thing.

My views on ARs ... I never wanted one. No issue with others owning as many as they want. Just not what floated my boat. I only bought the first one 'cause one of my goofy assed lib female friends yammered on and on nonsensically about it and I finally decided WTF, I'm buying one just to see for myself. At this point, I don't see being without one. They're still fugly, not a bit of nice walnut to be found, and clumsy in my hand, but I can't complain about how well the darn thing shoots. It'll outshoot many bolt actions i've owned that cost more than twice as much. So be careful .. they're both practical and addictive.

Tom

I equipped my MPR with an Ultradyne Athena linear compensator, which projects the noise and corruption forward. While shooting it could be described as almost pleasant, hearing protection is still most certainly required.

That's an excellent suggestion. I had to put a linear comp on my ex girlfriends MPR. She was actually afraid to shoot hers. She said it gave her headaches. It was not only the noise, but the actual blast that was horrible. Some of the blast would come back and you would feel the concussion. I shot it to see wth was wrong, and she was right. I ordered the linear comp, and threw the Ruger cheese grater away..

One of my buddies also shoots one, and he was complaining about the noise and blast, and I told him to get a linear comp. He did like I did, and bought a cheap one off of ebay. I actually think he lost some hearing from hunting with that rifle, but that is on him. A good option is the Kaw Valley linear comp. I've used those, and they work as they should.

One positive thing I can say about the Ruger, is they shoot very well, and they seem to be reliable.

Buying an upper and a lower to put it on is hardly “assembling”; nothing more involved than what’s required for ordinary maintenance. Doing so might allow you to get more of what you want, as well as save you money. Most complete rifles will probably have some stuff you’ll want to upgrade or alter. Shop around certainly, but don’t rule out buying the separate units out of hand.

9mm costs half of the price of .223/5.56 and if it satisfies your notions for self-defense you can afford to practice more and accumulate more for your stash. Ruger just brought out a .45 version of their PCC btw.

Hard to go wrong with the above suggestion for a Colt 6920. Great prices on those can be found at the moment.

I know of 3 recently bought (new production) Colts and all 3 have been very accurate and no reliability issues.

My latest, a SOCOM, has greatly exceeded what I thought a carbine can do, accuracy wise.

All 3 have had absolutely horrible triggers though. Mine had possibly the worst AR trigger I’ve ever felt.

I suppose if you drink Bud Light, watch "The View", and listen to Taylor Swift then the Colt 6920 is the rifle for you.

But for normal people, there just too many better options that don't include a horsey roll stamp

Could care less about a roll stamp.

For a buy and shoot rifle, they have a great track record.

BS.

First of all, it's not much of a brake. The rifle-length gas system is what makes it smooth.

Second, I only feel the muzzle blast if I'm standing to the side of the shooter - not when I'm shooting. Frankly, I don't know why people keep these goofy muzzle devices - most rifles shoot more accurately without them.

The only downside to the MPR gas system is that it isn't robust enough to handle steel cased ammo.

But the rifle comes stock with an excellent 2-stage trigger.

Appreciate everybody's comments, they help coagulate my own thoughts. Spent a few hours today watching youtube reviews and then listing out all the pros and cons of an AR in various configurations vs. a PCC in various configs and I've decided to go with a basic 9mm Ruger PC9. Left brained analysis follows...


On a 9mm PCC instead of a 5.56mm AR platform -

- I'm 71 and can still shoot pretty damn good, thank you, but my body gets less tactical with each passing day. I'm not about to go all Rittenhouse anywhere so the insurrection will have to do without me.

- Even thinking about some kind of street combat at my age and in my environs is pure fantasy. Home defense/self defense is the only realistic justification for this and even that scenario is very unlikely. What I need/want is well covered by the PDW/M1 carbine concept, not a battle rifle. I do want a carbine sized weapon, however, not a little submachine gun looking thing.

- If I have to shoot inside my house, a 9mm is loud but not anywhere near as horrendously eardrum breakingly loud as 5.56 in a short barrel, plus it penetrates less. In actual side by side comparison without ear protection, a 9mm in a 16" barrel was less offensive than a .380 from a Ruger LCP.

- 9mm ammo is about the cheapest centerfire factory ammo you can find, 5.56 costs around twice as much. I was always miserly shooting 5.56 but will actually shoot a 9mm a lot more.

- 147 gr. Hornady XTP factory ammo should get around 1100 fps from a 16" barrel. Not even close to a 5.56 in power but since a 147 gr. at 950 fps is the currently accepted darling in defensive pistols, 1100 is more.


On the Ruger PC9 over some other PCC -

- Natural pointing ability in a self defense firearm is a really big deal to me. I hefted some other 9mm carbines and the Ruger in some of its other configurations and the classic rifle configuration handles and points like a Winchester Model 94.

- It's basically a big 10/22. I've used and liked 10/22's for 56 years and counting. The PC9 accommodates left handers and Tandemkross even makes a neat amidextrous safety for it.

- Don't need or want all kinds of stuff M-Lok'ed on it, just a small weapon light. The basic PC9 has a short picatinny rail at the forend that is more than adequate for that.

- The comb is low so the iron sights line up perfectly. Tandemkross and EGW both make diminutive red dot mounts to replace the rear sight so a micro red dot can be mounted as low as the irons. You put the carbine to your shoulder with a good cheek weld and the sights or a dot are lined up perfectly with where you're looking; again, that's a big deal to me. AR's or AR style butt stocks need high mounted sights.

- Finally, this might be blasphemy in this forum but I just don't like AR's even though I've tried, really I have. I never fell in love with the one Uncle Sam loaned me 50 years ago and never fell in love with an FN-15 bought and sold a few years ago. No offense at all against those who do like them, they are excellent firearms, proven to be reliable and accurate in battle and elsewhere. They've just always felt awkward to me and I can't get used to them. Flame away!

Your analysis seems fine.

It’s your money

Your gun

Your choice.

BMT

Sounds like solid logic for your situation. I personally want a rifle cartridge in a rifle for serious use. Another option that works very well with your logic and preferences would be a Mini 14. It’s basically a 10/22 in 5.56 from a handling perspective. They are reliable enough and accurate enough for your purposes, and they are chambered in a rifle caliber. Of course, they are expensive relative to an AR.

You are full of schidt. Have you ever shot a Ruger MPR? The blast is ridiculous.

With Pistol Caliber Carbines, because they are typically of straight blowback operation, one must remain mindful of their potential for out-of-battery firings. Such events apparently occur only rarely. But, when they do occur, the results can be rather “stimulating.” The cartridge case ruptures, with its escaping high pressure gas, crud and corruption doing bad things to magazines, extractors, any other nearby delicate structures, or to the shooter’s body parts which may be within reach.

In Pistol Caliber Carbines of other than the AR type, such out-of-battery firings seem most likely to result from a dented or otherwise distorted cartridge case, or over accumulation of shooting residue, preventing the cartridge from fully chambering. Manufacturing tolerances within the disconnector mechanism then allow the firing of the cartridge while the breech is not fully closed. Visual inspection of cartridges for flaws as they are being loaded into magazines, careful attention to maintaining a reasonably clean chamber and breech mechanism, and using the strongest recoil spring which still allows reliable functioning with the ammunition being used, would be the preventative measures for this cause.

However, there is another possible cause for out-of-battery firings, often associated with Pistol Caliber Carbines of the AR type: “Bolt bounce” is said to happen when the breech block slams forward and strikes the rear of the barrel so hard that it actually bounces back a bit. If a cartridge is being chambered at the time, is captured by the extractor, is pulled partially out of the chamber during the “bounce,” and IF the shot is triggered at that instant, the unsupported cartridge case would rupture upon being fired. That last big IF would take a mighty quick trigger finger, I’m thinking. But, this guy thinks he’s done it:






Out-of-battery firings in AR type Pistol Caliber Carbines appear to flay open the entire case body, while non-AR types tend to rupture only the rear of the case, leaving an undamaged cylindrical portion in the chamber (sorry, no photo example immediately available).

But that's not what dish boi dla wants to hear. His (non) logic is always far superior to anyone else's reasoning on ANYTHING. Just ask him.

You have lib female "friends"?

They're not your friends. Lol.

Check PSA's daily deals. Today (2/7) there's an upper for $260 and a lower for $150. Also an Armalite complete ar for $700

Hello. I have the S&W MP Sport 2, Optics Model, bought bnib 3yrs ago, paid $750 out the door. Rifle is A1 performer, NO issues, super accuracy from the 1:9"bbl. I changed out Flash Hider, Handguard and trigger, but NONE of these mods were necessary, Factory rifle was perfect out of the box. I wish more rifles came through with 1:9"bbls, or slower, as I only shoot factory bulk, 55gr fmj.

The useless surgeon calmly drove because some bus driver gleefully breathed opposite a territorial scientist which, became a fancy, territorial lawyer.

Yep. You're still a dum [bleep] after all this time not reading a single word you'd dribbled out. Back into the background u go. Fugkin moron.

I wouldn’t touch a Ruger with a ten foot pole. They have an abysmal failure rate when you start shooting them a bunch.

The newer S&W aren’t terrible but those options you posted are the bargain bin of S&W.

I’d be looking at one of these for $900. It’s more rifle than the other options combined. https://www.brownells.com/guns/rifles/semi-auto-rifles/the-legacy--5.56-16-midgas-fsb/

.
No, too basic for that money.
This gets you more for your money.
https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifle...;utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=cl_NA
The Springfield Saint will go on sale for about $750 and then they really kill the competition.

What is a "bunch"?

I have an Ruger AR556 that is just crossing 5k rounds after 6 years of ownership. Runs great, accurate, tight. Paid $499 for it.

How many rounds does the average first-time buyer shoot?

My SILs Ruger MPR has only seen 1k rounds in 3 yrs of ownership. Looks brand new. Still running the bent Firing Pin I hand straightened on the kitchen table. It gets run dry a lot as my SIL disagrees with my idea of lubrication. The rifle always works. His son used the MPR to take his first deer and never complained about muzzle blast. I think my SIL and I are typical AR owners. I might shoot 1k a year, because I'm retired and reload. My SIL has to work, doesn't reload, and isn't rich.

My point, in case it isn't clear, is that "bunch" is likely far more than the average AR owner is really going to shoot.

The AR platform is mature. Lots of very good $500 rifles for the average AR owner nowadays.

Disclaimer:
None of the advice I ever offer is for the "average" AR owner who shoots 1K rounds in 3 years and will never trust their life to it. Nothing wrong with that being your use, it's just that you don't need advice for those guns. Most anything will work.

This piece in bold is probably the biggest pile of shiza I see on forums, and usually propagated by noobs and operator wannabes.

If you know how to run your f-ing weapon then you certainly can "trust your life to it". It doesn't matter if it is a JC Higgins shotgun or some forum approved carbine.

Only if said weapon has been thoroughly vetted under various conditions with enough rounds through it to be completely assured it will perform when needed & on demand.

If not, you're just hoping it will work when needed.

YMMV

MM

Go to a competition shoot of any kind and see if anyone who has a malfunction wins.

We practice malfunction drills regularly and know how to “run our weapons” but one bobble will knock you out of first place and in a gunfight, there is no second place.

There’s nothing wrong with buying proven quality, it’s the smart choice. Doesn’t matter if you’re defending your life, shooting a match, hunting or just out plinking.

Again that doesn’t mean you have to buy the most expensive, just buy proven.

Games \ne real life


Look up the word "canard". "no second place" is the title of a book and a bunch of horseshlt from Hollywood's mythology of the old west gunfighter.



Every AR from $400 up is "proven". In the real world, if the gun will run for 30 rounds, it is good enough. If it will run for 300 rounds the Military will issue it.

Knowledge has been chasing you your entire life.

But you are too fast…

I put thousands of rounds through PCC's each year and like them, but I don't think they are nearly as good as a .223/5.56 for self defense. The .223 has more power and with the right ammo is also less likely to penetrate walls. For a defense gun I would personally get something of good quality although it might cost a bit more.

I have several rifles with BCM uppers and they have been flawless. Colts are good but you pay a bit extra for the name. I think getting the upper you want and then adding a lower or putting one together together is a good way to go. A quality trigger is important and for a defense gun it's hard to beat a Geissele SSA or SSA-E. For a defense rifle I like a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel and I think a mid length gas system is a lot smoother than a carbine length. Those are my preferences, but realistically, most mid quality AR's are quite reliable these days and would be fine for your stated purposes.

The one thing that concerns me with a carbine length or shorter 223 AR as a home defense gun is the potential blast and report inside a confined space. I can't imagine what it would be like to touch off a 12.5 inch AR in a hallway without ear pro, but i assume you could kiss your hearing bye-bye. Suppressors seem like a necessity, to use a short-barreled AR as a home defense gun.

Yes, hearing loss is better than a funeral, and I also assume a three or four inch 357 would be just as bad, if not worse, in a hallway. Hell, maybe a glock 19 would be just as bad too, for all I know. I'm sure nothing is gentle on your ears in a confined space.

Been mulling getting a "K" length suppressor, to stick on a AR home defense setup. Probably need to start saving up for one.

The 11.5” SBR with K suppressor I have is just as long as my 16” carbines but shooting indoors is bearable with the can but certainly not fun.

I will say the warrior poet John Lovell says he’ll use his SBR without a can, citing the noise will cause confusion and pain with the blast and alert his neighbors to call 911. He says Auditory Exclusion has “protected” his awareness when he has shot indoors without a suppressor.

There are times I think the suppressor might be better left off and maybe ear pro donned? But the two times I’ve grabbed a gun in the dark, it’s been my 45.

First of all your premise that a 9mm will not penetrate as much "house" as a 5.56 is flawed in my opinion, again it depends on bullets but you need to do some research on that. Secondly an 18 inch barreled gun indoors could be a bit unwieldy. Third I would trust SW over Ruger but buy neither of them. If buying an ar these days, Colt 6920, or Daniel Defense I have never had a misfire or misfeed or any other problems, just keep them well lubed. The gun I keep out for trouble is a 6920. Just an A2 flash hider is all I use, I tried and got rid of various brakes and ported barrel guns they are too loud as I hunt with the ar sometimes. In the home, a pair of even cheap walkers game ear electronic ear pro would be helpful as well as a weapon light and a good red dot on the gun or prism as you say. I myself would not would hang my hat on a 9mm PCC if that is all I was going to own, get a pistol if you want a 9mm. The 5.56 is more effective close range, and even with a peripheral hit it does great damage to flesh, and then even with 55 grain ball ammo. It will be more accurate at long range, then it does not over penetrate, its moderately inexpensive to shoot, and in what is worse is that in some places intruders are wearing even cheap body armor that would defeat 9mm, but not the 5.56. The 5.56 makes more sense for a variety of reasons.

I can't imagine shooting an AR-15 indoors without ear protection. You probably would lose a significant amount of your hearing. And an SBR would be even louder than a standard length AR.

But it's not hard to keep a set of ear muffs or plugs where you can get to them quickly in an emergency.

Still, I think the advantages of a .223/5.56 over a 9mm outweigh the noise issues and of course even a 9mm is very loud in an enclosed space.

But I've been considering getting a suppressed SBR in .300 Blackout, as it would mitigate the noise issue considerably and still give you the power of a rifle.

^^^^^

This truth gets skipped over and trivialized by some self-appointed expurtz here. It really is incredulous to see them do it over and over.

Really wish they'd let the real experts say their piece and stop criticizing them every time the subject comes up. These idiots always succeed in soiling the thread.

Hmm. you have a few thoughts leaning towards decent thinking. Then you fall face first and can't get up. A shame it is..

Auditory Exclusion was mentioned here. It is a strange phenomenon indeed. I have experienced this several times. Close-range gunshots directed at me and my shots going out sounded like popcorn popping.

Auditory exclusion may ‘protect’ your awareness but it doesn’t do anything to protect from actual hearing damage.

I damn sure ain't gonna stop to put muffs on when lives are at stake in an instant.

Hearing damage. Last I checked if you were dead you had hearing damage that could not be repaired.

That said we will probably put suppressors on the vehicle guns and the house gun as we can afford to. But it won't stop us from doing what needs to be done.

Last fall when I had a bear ripping into my tent at midnight I did not have time to put in ear plugs. I did not have time when a bear was tearing the siding off one of the other cabins either. Both handguns are loud in confined quarters. I can still type. I mean hear and type.

I got the PC9 out to the range today to check the accuracy of various ammo.

The last thing I did before leaving was to fire one round without ear protection. This was outside but under a range cover with a back wall and peaked roof that channels sounds back to you.

The noise from an S&B 124 grain round was a sharp crack, loud but not painful at all. It actually seemed to be a bit less loud than a .22 fired from my Ruger semi-auto with a 6 7/8" barrel.

this is the best post. If your dead, you have hearing damage that cannot be repaired. I choose to live and protect those who count on me, if a 16 inch 5.56 solves the problem in my home, and I cant hear anymore, at least my wife will still be there to hug me and love on me, and I will be there to hug her back and love on her.

these days,
Multiple offenders
body armor
homes that heavy bullets shoot thru
Police more than minutes away

When your brain finally develops, you'll begin to understand that reality is far different from forum yabbering.

I was careful in my wording because in a stressful situation, you need to be aware of what’s going on. Hearing may or may not come back but as rost said, if you dead, your hearing is gone too.

Stress and adrenaline can do weird things. Do what you have to do and deal with the consequences later.

Two things here that are so stupid that they need rebuttal:

• This "vetting" consists of making sure the weapon is loaded and in condition to operate. Anything more than that assumes you will always have a choice.
• If you remember that the average Joe is not a cop, and doesn't have to pick a fight, and if you study self-defense shootings - most people are not forum-approved ninjas. Their weapons and skill level are mediocre - yet they prevail. The paragraph highlighted in bold above reads like it was written by a Marine Squirrel on crack.

I’m not (not have I ever) argued to not use a 5.56. I simply said that auditory exclusion doesn’t prevent hearing damage, since others were talking about hearing damage. Obviously that’s secondary to surviving a home invasion.

Hey phaagut troll, you're quite possibly the stupidest pos I've ever run into on an internet bulletin board. And I've been on them since the internet started.. Which makes you a really really stupid fugk. You never ever contribute anything positive or worthy of a takeaway.

Now go eat a bag of baboon dicks.

STFU and die, you fugking moron.

Just STFU, you fugking idiot. You wouldn't recognize positive thoughtful advice if it was stuffed up your vag-hole. You moron. Constantly schitting on great threads.

FOAD, you phaagut creep.

Life is tough - it's tougher when you are stupid.

Gotta wonder:

If a person could somehow actually reach through the internet to physically grab another person by the throat, would venomous, foul mouth insults still occur in online forums?

Yes. You think people don't insult others face to face? You think some of those slinging insults can't throw hands to back it up?

IME - every person that chirped "say that to my face" ended up face in the dirt wondering what happened. RARE is it "Say it to my face" and then the guy saying it is laid out.

Just observations from industries and jobs where chit talking is king. The military, construction, and trucking.

Problem there is if you are dealing with an old man. We don't fight fare. We learned a long time ago you loose a fair fight....

A couple questions for you Jim. How's the trigger. The trigger on my original PC-9 is the worst trigger I have ever had. I suspect Ruger improved it. Did you do any accuracy testing, and if so, how did it behave? Are you going to stick with factory sights?

The trigger is basically the same as a 10/22 but breaks a lot more cleanly than any 10/22 I've owned. There's just a small amount of take up with a very clean break right at 5 pounds on my trigger gauge - no mush or creep at all, then a bit of overtravel. The reset is both tactile and audible right at the same point where it broke, then no take up at all with another clean break.

I have no complaints about the trigger action given its purpose. The pull weight might be improved but for a defensive weapon it's fine, in a stressful situation you wouldn't want a trigger that's too light.

The accuracy surprised me. I mounted a Leupold 1-4x20 on it for testing and shot groups at 50 yards. The buttstock was on a bag but I held the forend in my hand and rested that over some sandbags. CCI 115 gr. aluminum cased Blazer did the best, 5 shots into .65", a nice group with all shots touching. S&B 124 gr. bullets put 5 into .73". Winchester white box was the worst with 5 into 1.5". That's certainly sufficient for combat accuracy out to 100 yards, and since my house has no straight line distance longer than 17 yards I'll call it good.

Something I wanted to check for was any POI change when the barrel is removed and then replaced. I adjusted the barrel nut down until the two halves went back together with some resistance. Fired 5 rounds of the S&B, removed the barrel and put it back on, let the bolt slam home 3-4 times which is what Ruger recommends to seat it well, then fired 5 more shots.

Very happy to report that there was no detectable POI change. All 10 shots went into a 1.2" group at 50 yards.

Will be mounting a Holosun HS407C on it but still debating whether to put it on the receiver or on the barrel. POI shift isn't a real worry for receiver mounting but it's kind of like the economist's quandary - it works in practice but still doesn't work in theory.

I've ordered an EGW mount that replaces the rear sight, that lets you get the lowest possible cheek weld and co-witnesses with the front sight but you lose the irons as backup. Mounted on the receiver still gives you a decent cheek weld although not as tight as barrel mounting and it partially hides the rear sight.

It's not really that big of a deal since this isn't some bugout gun or hit the streets for the urban guerilla revolution thing. It's strictly for home defense with a projected 99.99% actual use just plinking and target shooting. If the dot fails then it fails, this thing points so well I probably don't need the sights within the space of my house and if any S hit the F there sure wouldn't be any time to switch over to backups anyway.

Going to try mounting the dot in both places and just see what I like best. Will also be mounting a light on the front but still researching those.

5 pounds with zero creep is a heck of an accomplishment for a trigger. Thats a good report.

That sounds pretty darned good to me!

Paul, this will help verify your opinion on Ruger QC, but in the interests of full disclosure there was a serious fly in the ointment here - stovepipes.

It would eject CCI Blazer just fine but it had several failures to eject both Winchester white box and the Sellier & Bellot cases. It would stovepipe one case out of about every 10-20 rounds which is completely unacceptable in a self-defense rifle. Hickok45 and Honest Outlaw on youtube both experienced stovepipes with their PC9's so it's apparently a fairly common problem.

Fortunately, Tandemkross and MCarbo both make replacement extractors so I ordered and installed the Tandemkross model; it has a much deeper undercut which grabs more of the case rim.

Took it out yesterday and put 155 rounds of various ammo through it - a box of Blazer, 100 rounds of S&B and some Hornady American Gunner ammo without one single failure of any kind. Going to try another 100 rounds to be sure but it looks like that problem is solved. The product reviews for both company's extractors mention the stovepiping a lot and also praise the replacement extractors for completely solving the problem. Shame Ruger can't make one tiny adjustment to their extractor design.


Two other take aways from yesterday. I went to an indoor range since it's been rainy and windy here lately. My idea of a 9mm for indoors is sound since even inside a room with bare concrete walls the PC9 just goes Crack! Crack! Crack!

A guy three stalls down had an AR-15 with a 16" barrel and it went BLAM! BLAM! F*CKING BLAM! The noise and concussion was extremely loud even wearing ear plugs and muffs.

The other thing is that this little carbine is very easy to shoot. Here's a 2" square target set at 15 yards - the distance from my bedroom hallway to my front door - with 30 rounds of double taps. I'd start at port arms, present and acquire the target and fire two rounds quickly. This should be good enough for anti-social work.

Are you still looking?

PSA has an Armalite M15 on sale, I like my Armalite quality is excellent.
Absolutely no problems after approximately 3000 rounds of cheap ammo.
With cheap ammo accuracy has been ok.

Link


https://palmettostatearmory.com/arm...m_term=02-17-2024&utm_content=774901

what a shame you have to fix a new gun because the manufacturer under engineered it.