Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Pay and play - Ruger or S&W or other

Long post here, but need a setup before the main question.

Looking to get an AR-15 or possibly a Ruger PC9. Bought an FN-15 clone of an M16A4 a few years ago and it was a neat rifle but eventually did not meet my needs and was sold. So here is my criteria, more or less in order:

1a. Home defense
1b. Target shooting/plinking
2. Preferably under $1000 out the door. Not looking to go as cheap as possible but the more under, the more I have to spend on a good prism sight.
3. Unknown reaction of citizenry to totalitarian government.
4. Buy it and shoot it, don't want to assemble it.

There's a 100% probability that plinking at steel and paper will take up 99.99% of this firearm's life. But it must be an excellent choice for home defense, that's the primary justification for this since I have a bunch of other firearms that work very well for 1b.

Regarding #3, it used to seem far fetched but you never know, ya know?

For #1, 2 and 4 I'm seriously considering another Ruger PC9 9mm because of cheap ammo, dependability and the basic rifle style model 19100 points like your index finger. Had one five years ago and sold it for reasons which don't seem as smart now as they did then. But it's basically a .22 on steroids, both trajectory and power poop out much beyond 100 yards. $615 out the door at a local store.

So, I'm looking hard at one of these three.
Ruger AR-556 MPR Model 8514. 18" barrel, rifle length gas system, M-Lok forend. $879 out the door.


S&W M&P 15 Sport II. 16" barrel, carbine gas system. One model optics ready no sights, the other in standard M4 configuration with fixed front sight and Magpul MBUS rear. $733 and $763 respectively.


Handled the Ruger and the S&W with no sights today. I like the idea of the 18" barrel and rifle gas system on the Ruger but the aluminum handguard makes it muzzle heavy, the S&W in either configuration with the standard hand guards is lighter, handier and feels better in the hand.


Which finally gets to my question.

Is there anything really wrong about these? I know Ruger's quality control on their SP101 revolvers sucks and S&W double action revolvers aren't all they could be these days, but being an AR15 noob these two companies are known quantities to me, they generally stand behind their products and the rifles come ready to shoot without mods. Plus these models are readily available in local stores to look at and handle.

Since everybody and their brother's dog makes AR's, including Colt, is there another brand I should consider? I'm going to mount a prism sight on whatever I get so does a fixed front sight get in the way?

Would a Ruger PC9 be the better choice? It's good to 100 yards and less likely to penetrate three houses plus it won't completely blow your eardrums out if fired indoors, only leave them ringing for a couple of hours. But it's only good (really effective) to 100 yards. See #3 above.

An AR is far more powerful, has far more range and penetration; without a suppressor it would be absolutely nasty indoors with either barrel length and especially so if multiple rounds were fired, but it's the modern standard by which all other self defense firearms are judged.



Your comments are invited and welcomed, which is why this is posted in the first place.

IF, and that's a big IF, you are truly concerned with using it for HD, I wouldn't pick any of those. Spend just a bit more and get something nicer for that, since it sounds like this will be a one and done for you. But if you absolutely can't, get the S&W. As far as the prism and a fixed front sight, that's a no go IMO. Red dots can co-witness, and scopes work fine with just a bit of shadow from the front sight, but prisms show the whole thing, and it's magnified a bit, even the 1x models.

I'm REALLY liking my Ruger MPR. It's a good all around AR. The shorter barreled standard rifle is probably a better pure defensive rifle and is a little cheaper.

If you're looking at a PCC I'd STRONGLY suggest this S&W. I bought one a week ago and love it. Be sure to click on "View Gallery" for better pics.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

Street price was just over $600. The barrel folds making for a VERY compact package, just over 16", and it comes with a discrete carry case. Comes with two 23 round mags and a 17 round mag that will also fit a 9mm M&P pistol. There is storage for 2 spare mags inside the stock giving 63 rounds onboard.

I put a Holosun sight on it zeroed at 50 yards with 1 1/2 groups and still managed under 2" at 100 yards.

Buy a colt 6920

The brake on that MPR is grossly and literally deafening. Just a warning, before you decide to buy it. Good luck with your decision.

If you're not sold on an AR and you did mention a PCC in 9mm - here's a thought.

RCH over budget

Ruger did want AR15s banned in the 80s. Worked with the government to do it too.

Just saying.

Regardless almost anything is pretty decent these days.

I'd just buy whatever but put 1000 rounds through it before you trust it.

If not buy the Colt as noted, I've yet to see a bad one. But I've seen em with in accurate barrels and horrible triggers but they go bang all the time.

Or buy one of the more custom.

FWIW I have no issues fighting with a parts lower and BCA upper that I've run through the ringer at this point.

All has to be your call.

2 of the 3 Ruger MPRs I've owned have been signficantly sub MOA rifles with the right handloads. The first wasn't as good on average but had the single most accurate load. The current one hasn't delivered quite the accuracy with any one load but it'll shoot .75" or better with every 55 grain hornady other than the VMAX and a max load of H335. The middle gun was merely MOA.

The comment about the loudness of the "blast enhancer" is spot on. I got into a tight spot with a cougar out in the yard and mopped up with the MPR. I was standing around behind a tree for cover and for using it for a rest. Like to blew my fooooooking eardrums out. The "blast enhancer" came off and was replaced with a thread protector. It's still loud as "f" but to me not as disturbing. Before the switch, one Saturday I'd been out shooting. A guy I work with runs cows about 3 miles up the mountain. Somehow "weekend" came up and he asked if I knew what monster rifle someone had been shooting. We started dialing in on time. I know there's a guy who shoots a braked .460 and I thought it might be him. Nope, it was me with the MPR.

The only thing I would do different if getting another AR-15 is consider a 16" barrel instead of 18" barrel. (I would be real tempted by .300 blackout though.) And nothing wrong with a PCC in concept. I don't have one but I'm ... pondering. I kinda like lever actions in that role for my current uses but in the case of "social unrest" a good 9mm PCC with a couple buckets full of 124 grain +P JHPs would be a comforting thing.

My views on ARs ... I never wanted one. No issue with others owning as many as they want. Just not what floated my boat. I only bought the first one 'cause one of my goofy assed lib female friends yammered on and on nonsensically about it and I finally decided WTF, I'm buying one just to see for myself. At this point, I don't see being without one. They're still fugly, not a bit of nice walnut to be found, and clumsy in my hand, but I can't complain about how well the darn thing shoots. It'll outshoot many bolt actions i've owned that cost more than twice as much. So be careful .. they're both practical and addictive.

Tom

I equipped my MPR with an Ultradyne Athena linear compensator, which projects the noise and corruption forward. While shooting it could be described as almost pleasant, hearing protection is still most certainly required.

That's an excellent suggestion. I had to put a linear comp on my ex girlfriends MPR. She was actually afraid to shoot hers. She said it gave her headaches. It was not only the noise, but the actual blast that was horrible. Some of the blast would come back and you would feel the concussion. I shot it to see wth was wrong, and she was right. I ordered the linear comp, and threw the Ruger cheese grater away..

One of my buddies also shoots one, and he was complaining about the noise and blast, and I told him to get a linear comp. He did like I did, and bought a cheap one off of ebay. I actually think he lost some hearing from hunting with that rifle, but that is on him. A good option is the Kaw Valley linear comp. I've used those, and they work as they should.

One positive thing I can say about the Ruger, is they shoot very well, and they seem to be reliable.

Buying an upper and a lower to put it on is hardly “assembling”; nothing more involved than what’s required for ordinary maintenance. Doing so might allow you to get more of what you want, as well as save you money. Most complete rifles will probably have some stuff you’ll want to upgrade or alter. Shop around certainly, but don’t rule out buying the separate units out of hand.

9mm costs half of the price of .223/5.56 and if it satisfies your notions for self-defense you can afford to practice more and accumulate more for your stash. Ruger just brought out a .45 version of their PCC btw.

Hard to go wrong with the above suggestion for a Colt 6920. Great prices on those can be found at the moment.

I know of 3 recently bought (new production) Colts and all 3 have been very accurate and no reliability issues.

My latest, a SOCOM, has greatly exceeded what I thought a carbine can do, accuracy wise.

All 3 have had absolutely horrible triggers though. Mine had possibly the worst AR trigger I’ve ever felt.

I suppose if you drink Bud Light, watch "The View", and listen to Taylor Swift then the Colt 6920 is the rifle for you.

But for normal people, there just too many better options that don't include a horsey roll stamp

Could care less about a roll stamp.

For a buy and shoot rifle, they have a great track record.

BS.

First of all, it's not much of a brake. The rifle-length gas system is what makes it smooth.

Second, I only feel the muzzle blast if I'm standing to the side of the shooter - not when I'm shooting. Frankly, I don't know why people keep these goofy muzzle devices - most rifles shoot more accurately without them.

The only downside to the MPR gas system is that it isn't robust enough to handle steel cased ammo.

But the rifle comes stock with an excellent 2-stage trigger.

Appreciate everybody's comments, they help coagulate my own thoughts. Spent a few hours today watching youtube reviews and then listing out all the pros and cons of an AR in various configurations vs. a PCC in various configs and I've decided to go with a basic 9mm Ruger PC9. Left brained analysis follows...


On a 9mm PCC instead of a 5.56mm AR platform -

- I'm 71 and can still shoot pretty damn good, thank you, but my body gets less tactical with each passing day. I'm not about to go all Rittenhouse anywhere so the insurrection will have to do without me.

- Even thinking about some kind of street combat at my age and in my environs is pure fantasy. Home defense/self defense is the only realistic justification for this and even that scenario is very unlikely. What I need/want is well covered by the PDW/M1 carbine concept, not a battle rifle. I do want a carbine sized weapon, however, not a little submachine gun looking thing.

- If I have to shoot inside my house, a 9mm is loud but not anywhere near as horrendously eardrum breakingly loud as 5.56 in a short barrel, plus it penetrates less. In actual side by side comparison without ear protection, a 9mm in a 16" barrel was less offensive than a .380 from a Ruger LCP.

- 9mm ammo is about the cheapest centerfire factory ammo you can find, 5.56 costs around twice as much. I was always miserly shooting 5.56 but will actually shoot a 9mm a lot more.

- 147 gr. Hornady XTP factory ammo should get around 1100 fps from a 16" barrel. Not even close to a 5.56 in power but since a 147 gr. at 950 fps is the currently accepted darling in defensive pistols, 1100 is more.


On the Ruger PC9 over some other PCC -

- Natural pointing ability in a self defense firearm is a really big deal to me. I hefted some other 9mm carbines and the Ruger in some of its other configurations and the classic rifle configuration handles and points like a Winchester Model 94.

- It's basically a big 10/22. I've used and liked 10/22's for 56 years and counting. The PC9 accommodates left handers and Tandemkross even makes a neat amidextrous safety for it.

- Don't need or want all kinds of stuff M-Lok'ed on it, just a small weapon light. The basic PC9 has a short picatinny rail at the forend that is more than adequate for that.

- The comb is low so the iron sights line up perfectly. Tandemkross and EGW both make diminutive red dot mounts to replace the rear sight so a micro red dot can be mounted as low as the irons. You put the carbine to your shoulder with a good cheek weld and the sights or a dot are lined up perfectly with where you're looking; again, that's a big deal to me. AR's or AR style butt stocks need high mounted sights.

- Finally, this might be blasphemy in this forum but I just don't like AR's even though I've tried, really I have. I never fell in love with the one Uncle Sam loaned me 50 years ago and never fell in love with an FN-15 bought and sold a few years ago. No offense at all against those who do like them, they are excellent firearms, proven to be reliable and accurate in battle and elsewhere. They've just always felt awkward to me and I can't get used to them. Flame away!

Your analysis seems fine.

It’s your money

Your gun

Your choice.

BMT

Sounds like solid logic for your situation. I personally want a rifle cartridge in a rifle for serious use. Another option that works very well with your logic and preferences would be a Mini 14. It’s basically a 10/22 in 5.56 from a handling perspective. They are reliable enough and accurate enough for your purposes, and they are chambered in a rifle caliber. Of course, they are expensive relative to an AR.

You are full of schidt. Have you ever shot a Ruger MPR? The blast is ridiculous.

With Pistol Caliber Carbines, because they are typically of straight blowback operation, one must remain mindful of their potential for out-of-battery firings. Such events apparently occur only rarely. But, when they do occur, the results can be rather “stimulating.” The cartridge case ruptures, with its escaping high pressure gas, crud and corruption doing bad things to magazines, extractors, any other nearby delicate structures, or to the shooter’s body parts which may be within reach.

In Pistol Caliber Carbines of other than the AR type, such out-of-battery firings seem most likely to result from a dented or otherwise distorted cartridge case, or over accumulation of shooting residue, preventing the cartridge from fully chambering. Manufacturing tolerances within the disconnector mechanism then allow the firing of the cartridge while the breech is not fully closed. Visual inspection of cartridges for flaws as they are being loaded into magazines, careful attention to maintaining a reasonably clean chamber and breech mechanism, and using the strongest recoil spring which still allows reliable functioning with the ammunition being used, would be the preventative measures for this cause.

However, there is another possible cause for out-of-battery firings, often associated with Pistol Caliber Carbines of the AR type: “Bolt bounce” is said to happen when the breech block slams forward and strikes the rear of the barrel so hard that it actually bounces back a bit. If a cartridge is being chambered at the time, is captured by the extractor, is pulled partially out of the chamber during the “bounce,” and IF the shot is triggered at that instant, the unsupported cartridge case would rupture upon being fired. That last big IF would take a mighty quick trigger finger, I’m thinking. But, this guy thinks he’s done it:






Out-of-battery firings in AR type Pistol Caliber Carbines appear to flay open the entire case body, while non-AR types tend to rupture only the rear of the case, leaving an undamaged cylindrical portion in the chamber (sorry, no photo example immediately available).