Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Are These The EXACT Same Powders?

The other thread about H414 being the EXACT SAME THING as Winchester 760 being the EXACT SAME THING as Accurate 2700 got me thinking about what other powders are the EXACT SAME THING. So here's what I know so far ....

H414 = Winchester 760 = Accurate 2700
Norma 203B = Reloder 15
Norma MRP = Reloder 22

What other powder is out there that is the EXACT SAME THING as some other powder. I'm not talking about similar burn rates or good substitutes, I'm talking about the exact same powders being produced in the same factory but are just packaged differently and sold under another brand.




PS: Football season is over ..... get over it ...... on soooooo many levels.

I’ll kick this Hornets nest

RL22 and Norma MRP

Winchester 296 is the same as H-110

HP38 & WW231

not including Lovex . nitrochem or norma

You have about 55,000 PSI going off three inches in front of your nose. I would not ASSUME anyone "knows" one powder is exactly the same as another...but work up a load with each as you would another.

But it`s your nose.

Just wondering about the origin of the chart above?

^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS

Of course you work up a load. No where am I implying that you use the same exact charge from one brand that you might use from the other brand of the same powder. Just like how you work up a load when you change powder lots. But there ARE powders manufactured in the same factory but packaged under different brand names.

Glad to hear that. In my time shooting Hi Power, while on the shooting line, I had two rifles let go, one two points down from me. Exciting has all the foreend parts landed near us. The grapevine later explained the shooter had loaded what was supposed to be a powder exactly the same as he had been using. Hearsay I know, but I don`t take anything for granted.

Never fired a shot without this consideration….every time.

It’s a bit disconcerting.

I have used W-760 data a number of time with H-414 powder. I always start low though and work up wit one round going from several grails under to max W-760 data. I've heard the same about them being the same but I do pressure test before getting crazy! Has always worked for me. Didn't know AA-2700 was also the same but I'd still pressure test it first.

It's been a while now since Hodgdon started publishing exactly the same loads for H414 and W760 in their on-line data. In fact, before they revised the site in the past year they still list identical loads for both powders, but with the new data program you have to call them up separately. I just did that with 165-grain bullets in the .308 Winchester and yep, they're exactly the same in maximum load, pressure and velocity.

Might also mention, as I have few times before here, but it's no longer Accurate Arms (AA) powder, and hasn't been since Ramshot purchased AA around 20 years ago--when Ramshot changed the name to plain Accurate Powders. And instead of selling the SAME powders as Accurate Arms (which were often surplus powders, and made in various places) they started having them made in the same powder factory in Florida that already made H414 and W760--which is why A2700 is indeed the same powder, and has been for quite a while.

Rich J, My powder is a long ways from new production, but it's new enough to be in current style of containers..and I just don't see H4895 and IMR 4895 being on the same line. In a .308, with a 150 grain flatbase, I get just about same result grain for grain that puts H4895 very close to IMR 3031...and IMR 4895 requires at least 2 more grains to reach same velocity. But, as I said, I'm not sure how old my powders are or what date your chart is.

Oh I hear ya'. I've been hand-loading rifle cartridges since 1982.

Retired engineer now, and spend more time hand-loading. I find the application of statistical methods such as confidence intervals, ANOVA (Analysis Of Variance), statistical hypothesis testing has helped me get more consistent results in my load development. Moreover, some of these more elegant approaches to load development has helped me abandon loads that were not repeatable/reliable.

I forget sometimes many here have never taken off their training wheels.

A few year ago I had a new 8# jug of H-414, a new 8# W-760

I mixed them together well to have one lot and put masking tape on both jugs renaming them WH-1174


😂

Would've thought you'd call it WH-587.

That'll work!

Which is kinda what major powder companies do after producing a new lot. They save some of the previous lots that were faster or slower-burning than the ideal they were, uh, "aiming" for. They test the new batch, then if it's not within 2-3% of the burn-rate desired, they mix in some of the older batches to adjust the burn-rate.

This obviously is easier to do when the powder's been in production for a while, so there are more previous batches. When Hodgdon started offering the IMR Endurons a while ago (primarily due to a shortage in the supply of the Australian-made Extremes), they sent me some 1-2 pound samples of various powders to try. One of them was IMR4451, which was designed to approximate H4350. I was impressed enough to order an 8-pounder from a website, but it resulted in around an 80 fps difference in the same loads. So I mixed the first batch into the 8-pounder, and it resulted in velocities closer to their published data.

Ain’t you somethin’….

1982! Wow!

It looks to me like over the years some powders were made by more than one company (made, not relabeled and sold).

I think there are "value added" mixes done by some resellers.

Did you know the secret to Guinness beer is adding back a bit of the older “ sour” batch.

The best results stay in Ireland I been told.

exlax is cheaper

Am not surprised--but in general beer is better where it's made, rather than after being shipped. Have sipped Guinness in various places, including Ireland (a half-mile from the brewery in Dublin), but had it on tap for the first time in Norway, where it was also excellent, not surprising since it ain't that far from Ireland. Like it on tap more than canned.

Have also had the same experience with Pilsner Urquell in the Czech Republic (or as its not now called Czechia), versus bottled here.

But both Ireland and Czechia have a bunch of other great beers!

I'm certain I'd love Czech beers on location, given how much I like the version I can get here.

Cask conditioned bitter in London was wonderful, as were the various beers I had in Bavaria.

Having had Guinness both in the US and in Ireland it is much better in Ireland.

Yep. Started off with a (now called) Classic Lee Loader in the good ol' 30-06. Didn't like the notion of using a hammer to prime the cases with the Lee Loader so got an RCBS hand priming tool. As you know the Lee Loader came with a powder dipper but had to get a powder scale and trickler to weigh each charge. Lastly I set up a big c-clamp in a fixture, using the Lee Loader, to seat the bullets ..... poor man's Arbor press.

Yeah the training wheels have been off for quite some time now.

Methinks "1982! Wow!" does not mean what you think it means.

Whether a hobby or profession, 40 years IS a significant period of time to devote to something. Regardless of what ANYONE says.

Exlax , it may be cheaper. But I"be never gotten home looking forward to a nice glass of it.

Lot to Lot variations of the exact same powder can create issues the same also. No one seems to care about that very much either.

I had an 8 pounder of 760 here and two 1lb jugs of 414.

Side by side, they looked different but I mixed them together anyways and kept on trucking with a 10 pounder of 760.

Used to drink drink Murphy's but have not seen it in a while.

Just a puppy.

How about 1958....

But I was just a lad then, now an old fart....

DF

We were lucky in some ways. One lot of 2520 was over 200 fps slower than the previous lot. I probably was not smart enough at the time, to reduce and check over Chrono. I probably loaded the same or .5 grain less in 223 and shot it over the Oehler and was lucky it was slow.

I think that you missed the point. Coming across as a pompous ass doesn't help your case, even if your superior process produces elegant solutions.

Or so it seems to me.

+1.
OP: You've got 18 years on me. I started in 2000. I still consider myself a rank neophyte. I never ask a question on 24hourcampfire.com unless I'm willing to accept the answers of folks who have way more experience than I do.

Not all time is created equal, so to speak. One guy may learn and acquire the same experience in 1 year, that another guy does in 10.

No clue exactly when I started. I know it was in my teens and still in school. Very likely about the late 70s.

It doesn't matter much. Still learn every day. And some never learn no matter the years.

Exactly.

I started in 1966, and also still learn every day....

Did you know cask conditioning is a “ live” brew.

Every morning most pubs “ pull” off the settled yeast from the casks.

There was a chain of pubs that sold pints from short dated casks at a discount.

Like the band ly nerd skinnerd, it was named after a teacher that told the owners of the pubs they would fail in life. ( I can’t recall it’s name)

There also was a lobby group in Britain CAMRA…..Campaign for real ale……that made it law not to short the pints served with too much foam. That’s why there are marks on British pint 🍺 glasses.

I do know it's live. I'm reasonably well informed on the subject of beer.

It is, unless you're practicing mistakes. Not sayin you specifically are......just sayin'.

three more. I think nitrocheme is supplier to reloader swiss retail


nitrocheme ---Alliant - Reload Swiss


Nitrocheme – 145 == RL-17 - reload swiss 60
Nitrocheme – 170 == RL-33
Nitrocheme – 155 == RL-26

I started in 1972. Now that I’ve got the basics down, I would like to move on to some really cool stuff!

It was about 1989 when I went down that rabbit hole.

Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X Terminator.
I think. Data is exactly the same.
F01

I started in 1966, loading 45 ACP. Friend's dad had a 1911 AND a genuine "Chicago Typewriter". He'd let us shoot them (with adult supervision), but we had to provide our own ammo, so he taught us how to reload. Sometimes one of our dads would take us to buy components at a couple of LGS's, but other times we rode our bicycles. Imagine 11 and 12 y/o kids doing that today. We usually did our reloading on Friday nights, and my friend and I would load for hours, sometimes all night, on a Rockchucker. The sizer was a standard non-carbide, so it took a lot of time cleaning lube off the brass with old rags. Then on the appointed Saturday, one or both of our dads would take us somewhere (often our farm) where we'd shoot it all up in a couple of hours. Then we'd go home and clean them thoroughly. We burned a lot of HP-38, Unique, and Bullseye through those two weapons.

Our parents didn't give us money to buy components with, we had to earn it ourselves. Both of us had multiple side-jobs, besides normal chores. Bought my own tools in 1969.

Was going to post this cautionary story anyway John, but it's so germane to your post above I'll just put it here.
Back before Covid, I bought a pound of IMR 4451, found it to be everything you were saying it was, so followed up with an 8# jug. Just recently did some load work for a friend using .243W Nosler brass, the 95 gr BT, and your load from the "Little Book" of 42 gr 4451, which gave just under 3100 FPS from the 1 pound lot. Used up the last of the 1# in the process and had to go to the 8#. Did a little rework up ladder with the new lot to the old 42 grain charge. Was stunned to see only 2900 FPS with the new lot from the 8# jug. That's by far the biggest lot-to-lot variation (200 FPS, with everything else about the loads identical) I've ever encountered. One more data point to always back off and re-check charges when going to a new lot of even the SAME powder, much less the substitutions being described in this thread - this happened to get slower, but it could just as easily been on the faster side and dangerous.

Cheers,
Rex

It's important to note that while W760, H414 and Accurate 2700 are the same powders now, that's not the case with the older stuff. They were very close in burn rate but physically quite different. For a time before it was dc'd, H414 was 760. I think Hodgden made a marketing fumble by dc'ing the H414 moniker.

Good shootin'

In January of 2023, I questioned Hodgdon if these were the same powder.
They replied they were made in different plants.
Some applications they are identical in performance, such as the 223. Some applications slight differences begin to show up. They named the 338 Federal as an example of where that happens.

As noted earlier I also started on 1966--but was the first handloader in the family. A next-door neighbor (and good friend and co-worker of my father) handloaded, but he basically did it to save money. The only rifle round he loaded was the .30-06, for his "sporterized" 1903-A3 Springfield.

I bought a "war surplus" Mosin-Nagant rifle for $10 and he helped me sporterize it, but I had to order a Lee Loader (the hand tool) and Norma brass from a local store, the Powder Horn in Bozeman, Montana--where I was born and raised. It was also only three blocks from our house, which was handy. Also bought my first bullets, powders and primers from the Powder Horn, but my first two loading manuals.--both of which I still have. The first was the Speer #6, which I bought without checking whether it included the 7.62 "Russian." It did not, which is why I have a Lyman manual from the same year.

Not long afterward bought a Marlin bolt-action 20-gauge, and also used a Lee Loader for it, which worked well.

Paid for all of it with my paper-route money.....

This ^^

kwg

At one time, that was also the case with MRP & RL-22.

And I still have both powders from that vintage.

MRP was darker, fully cylindrical kernels while '22 was flatter, more irregular & lighter in color.

But then, as now, I loaded their charge weights interchangeably, at least in 270, 280, 3006 & 338's.

MM

Curious, I thought that 3100 when it came out was the same as 4831. True? Or not?
Military surplus 4831

And as I noted in an earlier post, a few years ago my batches of MRP and RL-22 appeared identical--and produced the same velocities in all my tests. Which is why I eventually mixed 'em....

I'll mention this again, I used a clearance powder that was "2 grains faster than 4350" . Each lot # was different . I would workup and when I hit my rifle's happy velocity, I had my new load.

I try to learn from everyone I ever worked with. Sometimes the guy who has been doing it for 30 years methods aren't as good as the guy who just started six months ago.

Yep, partly because those who started 30+ years ago "learned" things that weren't true--one good example being "pressure signs."

> another WOW !!!! been loading and reloading since 1979 , still learning and 24 hr. Campfire has help some too . training wheels ? bring your rifle over i will show you just how an old blue collared worker can shoot his blue collared rifle with my simple blue collared handloads shoot and i will do it with just an old Ruger #1 too.



/i wi

There was a dealer in Sioux Falls who was selling 3100 as 4831 surplus. He was selling it in paper bags. I believe he bought a 55 gallon drum or two of surplus powder that was labeled 3100.

My memory is getting worse as I get older, but I believe that there was a magazine article regarding the last of the surplus 4831 as being labeled 3100.

Does anyone recall that or am I remembering something that never happened?

I’m reading articles all the time from experts. I learn or relearn things. There’s quite a few people here on the fire that are very knowledgeable too.

The first AA3100 I tried was indeed very similar in both appearance and burn-rate to the then-available H4831--which doesn't prove much....

My Rockchucker has a '71 stamped into the top. I think I purchased it in 72. Not an expert by any means. I like advice from other reloaders and sometimes I even use it. Be Well Brothers, RZ.

Thank you sir!
F01

Other "same" powders are Hodgdon HS-6 and Winchester W 540. 540 is no longer marketed but HS-6 is still a common choice for me in the 28 ga and for 12 ga buffered hunting loads.

A pair of same but discontinued powders one can still run across are Hodgdon HS-7 and Winchester H 571. I recently acquired an unopened bottle of each which will be used for buffered 12 ga loads. Those two bottles should last me through a good decade of hunting and ease the stress on my stock of HS-6.

I had a friend that took this concept a little too far in my humble opinion. One day he mentioned his “duplex” loads for the .300 Weatherby, and since that piqued my curiosity and I also shoot a .300 Weatherby I asked exactly what his duplex loads were.

He rattled off three different powders, all with similar burn rates. He says when the containers get low he just mixes them all together. Mind blown!

AKBob5,

Ran into a guy at one of the "winter hunting shows" years ago, believe it was SCI. He recognized me from photos with my articles, and wondered if I thought the editor Handloader would be interested in an article on mixing powders to get higher velocities. If I recall correctly he specifically mentioned the .375 H&H, and regularly getting an extra 150 fps, or even more.

I asked if he'd pressure-tested any of his handloads, and he looked puzzled--because he'd developed them by traditional "pressure signs." I explained that plenty of electronic pressure-testing had been done on ammo developed by using such pressure signs, and they usually didn't show up until over 70,000 PSI--and that I doubt the editor (who at the time was Dave Scovill) would run such an article without his handloads being pressure-tested--and in-line with the 65,000 PSI that SAAMI allows as maximum average pressure for ANY cartridge.

He tried to argue with me, so I told him to write it up and send it to Scovill. Dunno if he ever did....

John

That was probably Trap And Field Supply. As a teen, I'd go there with my Dad. They had brown paper bags of powder. If you wanted a big quantity, they'd get it from a big cardboard drum. Robson Hardware also sold powder that way.

The latest of the same powder, different name is Hodgdon now sells Titegroup as High Gun, probably trying trying to increase the market for it for via shotshell reloaders.

I've used 24#s of Titegroup for 12 ga 1 oz and 1-1/8 oz target loads over the past few years.....good stuff. Very dense, so often use a taller wad to get good stack heights and a flat crimp...ie use a 1 oz wad for a 1-1/8 oz load and 7/8 oz wad for a 1 oz load.