|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994 |
At the end of the day I like to decide what matters for me based on my own results. 1000 yards prone/sling/irons groups .284 Win, 184 Bergers SD 5.4 FPS Vertical 6.56" .308 Win 155 Bergers SD 13.1FPS Vertical 16.37" This group has double the shots of the first, but you can clearly see the elevation differences corresponding different velocities shown on the right. The "positive compensation" effect mentioned in other posts above is not to be discounted, but I'm not certain it can be relied upon over different conditions. Mike i agree 100% if I wanna change something I tezt it myself, I consider myself lucky I can lean on a very successful 1,000 BR shooter if have a gun that isn't were I want it all I have to do is text him a pic of my targets and he gives me suggestions after we text or talk about it. I've also shot with him for a couple years alot when he does his testing which is usually Jan and Feb in Montana winters which aren't very pleasant we always set are targets up and everything ready and are shooting as soon as we can see. He would shoot at 890 and me at 700. One mourning I watched him test 3 different firing control systems different bolts with different weight springs and pin dia. in his BAT action Light Gun, pretty eye opening at the rests. How many do that? or even measure pinfall, protrusion or change springs? My guess is not many. I know some dont even own an annealer, couldnt tell you there runout because they don't measure it, use mandrels to open up necks because they don't want to disturb the carbon inside the neck its there lube albeit you have to turn necks for that or clean case only the outside they wipe it down with alcohol to get all the case lube off. Grip on bullet is another big one and only using inline dies to " feel" the seating force you can never do that with the " Competition " seater. I'm not to the point yet were I use a force pack but if I feel any difference in seating a bullet the round comes apart and I start over. Everything I just mentioned was basically taught me by some really good 1,000 BR shooters because I asked questions and saw the results for myself on target not because some article, computer or number said otherwise. People can believe this stuff or not it really doesn't matter to me but some just wanna attack you because some 9,10 20 year old article says different.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994 |
If you run a 6mm 105 Berger over there ballistics calculator at 2900 then at 2920 to 1,000 yards it should have 5" vertical but I've seen that shoot only 2" vertical. My 6.5x300wsm waterlines at 2.5 wide x.5 vert at 665 with an E.S at 22fps, I do need to get it to stand up a little.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,239 Likes: 5
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,239 Likes: 5 |
I do not doubt that. I have had a loads for past barrels (RIP) that seemed pretty immune to velocity spreads and I attributed that to the upward movement of the muzzle interacting with the exit time of the bullet. It is only recently that I have heard of the term "positive compensation". I am glad that I shoot sling (competition) and don't really need to be concerned about a lot of this. As a Professional Engineer I can appreciate it though. Perhaps a thread on weight sorting primers?
Last edited by MikeS; 03/03/24.
Too close for irons, switching to scope...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,659 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,659 Likes: 1 |
[ Where is anyone here saying you need single-digit ES? Single-digit SD, maybe, but SD is very different from ES. In a Gaussian distribution, SD is approximately 1/6th of ES. Actually, the estimate of SD is ES/4. And that will be "rough". Then to get a realistic estimate of the real world variance, you should use at least +/- 3 SD, or to be even more certain, +/- 6 SD. MM
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,994 |
I do not doubt that. I have had a loads for past barrels (RIP) that seemed pretty immune to velocity spreads and I attributed that to the upward movement of the muzzle interacting with the exit time of the bullet. It is only recently that I have heard of the term "positive compensation". I am glad that I shoot sling (competition) and don't really need to be concerned about a lot of this. As a Professional Engineer I can appreciate it though. Perhaps a thread on weight sorting primers? That would certainly explode some heads lol
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,335 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,335 Likes: 3 |
Well, this thread has convinced me that some people are obsessive about some things. 😂
Al
Spend your life wisely.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,940 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,940 Likes: 3 |
From my short time of observations here, I think too many obsess over insisting things don't matter.
For those people, may they be forever blessed with only half sharpened hunting knives, and trucks stuck in limp mode...... Could not have said it better myself. Had a coworker that lived by the opinion that, if he could hit an 8 inch paper plate at 100 yards, he was good to go.
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,550 Likes: 7
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,550 Likes: 7 |
[ Where is anyone here saying you need single-digit ES? Single-digit SD, maybe, but SD is very different from ES. In a Gaussian distribution, SD is approximately 1/6th of ES. Actually, the estimate of SD is ES/4. And that will be "rough". Then to get a realistic estimate of the real world variance, you should use at least +/- 3 SD, or to be even more certain, +/- 6 SD. MM That entirely depends on your confidence requirement. Assuming a meaningful sample size, ES is well-described by a range of 6*SD (+/- 3 from the mean) that captures approximately 99.7% of the population. Using 4*SD captures 95% of the population, which is still a fairly good estimate of ES.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 20
New Member
|
New Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 20 |
Some really well known famous gun guy somewhere back in the day said only accurate rifles are interesting ... I think we sometimes forget that "back in the day" an accurate rifle was 1.5moa and many "well known famous gun guys" were satisfied with 2moa
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 1,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 1,939 Likes: 3 |
Some really well known famous gun guy somewhere back in the day said only accurate rifles are interesting ... I think we sometimes forget that "back in the day" an accurate rifle was 1.5moa and many "well known famous gun guys" were satisfied with 2moa That particular famous gun guy was only THE Townsend Whelen......who needed/needs no introduction. Care to venture a guess what a rifleman like him would do with our modern means and methods if he were alive and shooting/handloading/wildcatting today?
I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children may live in peace. ~~ Thomas Paine
|
|
|
|
536 members (007FJ, 12344mag, 06hunter59, 10gaugemag, 160user, 16gage, 57 invisible),
2,753
guests, and
1,219
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,644
Posts18,512,455
Members74,010
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|