Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Unusual Accuracy

Have you ever had a rifle that just surprised you with its level of precision? I've got one for you.

My Dad purchased a well used Winchester M-94 carbine in 32 Winchester special, he picked a mid range load out of a reloading manul and cooked up a batch of ammo. Years later I had it & took it to the range, put it on the 100 yard lane with the biggest bullseye target I could find. As I settled in behind it was thinking I'll be lucky to hit the paper with these open buckhorn sights, squeezed of 3 rounds and took a walk downrange.

Low and behold all 3 shots in a perfect triangle right on the target center about 1.5"

You could have knocked me over with a feather.

41

Two incidents I recall, both with Ruger #1s. I had my 1976 model .270 1B at the range. I was shooting at 50 yards, checking out some iron sighted rifles, then figured, what the heck, I'll check zero on the .270. Fired one shot, yes, where I expected. Fired another. no sign of a 2nd hole. "Huh?" fired a 3rd. One hole in the target. Wondering what was going on, as the rifle was always very accurate. Raised the POA an inch, and a new hole appeared 1 inch above the first. With the scope at 10x, at 50 yards, I could not tell there were 3 shots in the first hole.

Another time recently, with a Boddington #1 in .300 H&H. It was brand new to a friend. Mounted a scope, bore sighted it. My friend takes a shot, ~4 inches high at 100 yards. Adjust scope, different friend shoots, two shots about an inch apart. Adjust scope, I sit down and launch one. Absolutely dead center on the target, at 100 yards. You could not have placed the hole any closer to dead center, if you'd walked up and drilled it. I told the owner, let me know when you get tired of the recoil....

There is the "luck" factor...

"Level of precision", is determined by multiple groups shot and recorded on paper. Not just 1 group. A single 3 shot group is not going to prove anything to me, except you got lucky, as someone else said. Do that 10 times, and let us know the results. It is nice when you get a Winchester 94 that shoots well though. Generally the Marlin levers exhibit better/more consistent precision.

Not trying to start any contention here, but frequency of 'luck' goes up dramatically with 3 shot groups. 5 shots, if it's working well, I'm cautiously optimistic.
10 shots, I'm a believer. Back in the NRA days when they actually did real life stuff, the standard was 5 groups of 5 shots. Pretty thorough.
Using my preferred standard of 10 shots, I do not own any sub moa hunting rifles, but, hope springs eternal.

Yes, with two rifles.
The first was with a Remington 722 in 222.
I was working up a load in this rifle right after I purchased it at a hundred yards.
I put five shots in a group that measured .382 and that’s where load development stopped.
This was with R-P brass, CCI 400 primers and Sierra 45 grain spitzers on top of BLC-2.
I have tried a lot of combinations in that rifle and you have to work to get it to shoot over an inch. Extremely accurate rifle. 722’s have a reputation for accuracy so I wasn’t to surprised.
It’s not going anywhere
The other was a real surprise. I bought an old H&R 158 off of a buddy with a 30-30 barrel and twenty gauge barrel.
Somebody, before my friend, had put a set of black synthetic stocks on it and painted both receiver and barrel brown. It looks horrible.
Anyway, I was working up a load for it with 160 grain Hornady FTX’s and Leverevolution powder and it wasn’t shooting half bad.
I believe I was at 34 grains, fired five shots, and then my son and I walked out to see what the results were.
When we got to the target we started laughing. All five shots could be covered with a nickel, and that was with an old 2.5 power Weaver. Not quite what I was expecting. My youngest boy even killed a few rabbits with the shotgun barrel.
It won’t be going anywhere either.

There were a lot of guys here that found out they don't have "sub moa" hunting rifles, a while back when we were shooting the moa all day long challenge. Most of mine are.

We should bring that back.


Okie John

The rifle that surprised me the most was a .458 win mag . I acquired a VZ 24 in .264 win mag that did not shoot well cheap. I bought an Adams and bennet barrel from midway on sale for less than 60 bucks shipped. Once barrel was fitted we glass bedded the full length , barrel action ,everything in the cheapy laminated stock that came with the rifle. Fitted an IOR 4x scope on it and loaded some ammo. 500 gr hornady soft points, cci 250s and about all the ww748 that would fit in the case. At 100 yds the gun would literally shoot under a half inch day in day out . It would have been an excellent varmint for score gun for the individual that can tolerate the recoil. I can not explain the accuracy , or why I traded it away,for a gun I keep less than two hunting seasons.............
other than a .458 has very little practicality in the prairie of Wyoming.

Yes. A 6.5x55 Swede that was to be a truck gun. About 1906 vintage with a chopped original barrel. It will cloverleaf everything. I loaded up a ladder run to help find a sweet spot and every round was inside of an inch. It now resides in the safe.

Remington 7600 synthetic in 270 Win.

The stock on that thing beat the hell out of my face, though. 10 shots through it and it looked like someone had punched me in the eye. Traded it off quite a few years ago since it was just no fun whatsoever to shoot.

Such things occur now and then.

50 yards

Yup, s hit happens.

In a hunting rifle, accuracy is what really counts. Precision means nothing without accuracy, the ability to hit what’s aimed at, precisely where it needs to be hit, with the first shot or two. That being the goal, this TCR 83 Aristocrat in .30-06 proved meaningfully accurate in a somewhat surprising, meat promising way, with only two shots fired from a cold bore to check its zero:


No more shots were fired from that rifle that day, as those two certainly seemed sufficient. The 18 rounds remaining in that box were saved for potentially more important targets.

I bought an early 70's vintage Steyr Mannlicher Left Hand Model M in 30 06 with a Zeiss 6x32 Diatal scope that an elderly man bought new in Austria, but could no longer hunt due to health. When I bought it, he said it was accurate as hell. I asked him when the last time he shot it and he said 20 years or so. It shot a 3 round clover leaf less than 1/2" at 100 yards with my pet handload exactly in the bulls eye. I have spent thousands on custom rifles and barrels to get them to shoot like that. The first rifle I have bought that I am 100% satisfied with in every way including the stock fitment except I am getting rid of the cheesy plastic bottom and replacing it with an aluminum one. The plastic mags don't bother me and I have had zero issue with them.

Mine is a TC COMPASS in 6.5 Creed that cost me NEW $260.00 and would be $30.00 cheaper if my computer would handle the rebait. It easily shoots 3/4" and smaller 3 shot groups. Easily the cheapest NEW rifle that I have ever bought. They stopped making them, if they hadn't I would gladly buy a FEW more!

Hip

I bought a Model 700, 30/06 Mountain rifle, stainless with a laminated stock about 20 years ago. I loaded some middle range loads with Ballistic Tips with a buddy’s dies while I waited for mine to be delivered. I mounted a scope and I think it was the first time I lapped the rings in mounting the scope.

I took it out to my hunting club just to get it on paper, set up at the bench and pulled the bolt so I could bore sight it. I don’t normally do my initial shooting at 100 yards but there was a new backer on the target so I figured I would catch any shots.

I set the rifle on the bags and backed up a couple of feet so I could use the bore as a tiny peep sight. The scope looked really close but it looked very slightly high and that I needed about an inch and a half right windage. I put in 6 clicks right and left the elevation alone.

I fired two shots and they were touching,………. an inch and a half right and two inches high. 😳 Well, chit! 6 clicks back to where I started and I was ready to hunt. I thought, well maybe there IS something to lapping the rings. 😁

I always appreciate the folks who differentiate between precision and accuracy--bu the two major references on the English language, The Oxford English Dictionary for British English, and the various editions of Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary for the American dialect, list “accuracy” and “precision” as synonyms, meaning exactly the same thing.

The differentiation between precision and accuracy is a form of jargon--which the OED defines as "special words or expressions that are used by a particular profession or group."

yes I have one of them little compass in a 204 Ruger. but do not like the thick stock. not sure I really like how the thing looks at all but it does shoot extremely well. I namely bought it because it was at 10 twist and a 204 instead of a 12 and what will help stabilize the 40 grain bullets and maybe even try some 50s.. a good trigger job on it and it works really well.. and I actually think I caught it on a special sale at 200 bucks

I was once asked if I knew the difference between ignorance and apathy. I replied, I don’t know and I don’t care.

Irregardless, it seems that in refining definitions of words, previously trusted and respected dictionaries have, in more recent times, placed much emphasis on word usage by undereducated people who simply don’t know any better, thereby legitimizing the imprecise use of otherwise precise words, as well as fostering the use of non-words, such as irregardless. I’m afraid this is yet another example of the “go along to get along” mentality, so prevalent now. The lowest common denominator rules.

I must occasionally deal with people who completely lack the ability to communicate the precise nature of their issues with the correspondingly necessary “precision,” who then become frustrated, uncontrollably irritated and obnoxious when things don’t go quite the way they expect. Lately, in order to accommodate the special needs of such people, I’m able to refer them to an outstanding younger member of my staff who, in addition to other highly valuable skills, apparently understands and speaks modern moron fluently. Ours is a full service organization, you see.

A particular rifle firing a particular load may indeed be a sub-moa or moa rifle, but the shooter may NOT be when he/she goes hunting or even to the range when he/she are not at their best! I've had that experience more than a few times, especially as I get older. What I find a bit more interesting is shooting a known accurate load by a single shot per week for three weeks or more on the same target! That may reveal more about the shooter than the rifle and load! I've done it with a favorite .300 Win Mag, .45-70s and .458s. That tells me more about field performance than three shots on a given day benchrest style.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I once had a Remington pump Model 14 in .25 Remington that would simply print cloverleaves at a hundred yards with the Hornady 120 grain RN bullets. Not just once but nearly always after I put a Lyman receiver sight on it. I actually used it on prairie dogs. I got rid of it in an ill-advised downsizing and have regretted it since.

I used to shoot and sight in at a gravel pit west of town. One day I was shooting and a guy was there to sight in his 94 30-30. I watched him. He placed a target at 100 yards. Loaded the rifle and stood and shot offhand and racked the lever as fast as someone could. He shot till it was empty. Went and got his target, proclaimed he was ready to hunt. Group was the.size of a baseball. I was impressed. No rest, offhand, shooting as fast as he could chamber a new round. If he saw a deer it died.

Mule Deer:


A subject that gets about 5 minutes of time in our Hunter Education classes and the kids get it.

I have a Remingtion 700 Classic in .35 Whelen that has consistently been 1 inch or less for multiple 3-5 shot groups since I have owned it. When it doesn't, it usually means I am having a bad day at the bench.

Most encouraging news. There is yet hope.

T/C Compass Utility in 308 Win topped with an old Nikon 4X scope. The rifle was bought from Academy on one of their sales and ran me less than $250 including tax. These are all 100 yards groups.




I don't know what more you can ask out of an inexpensive rifle that was bought to be a truck gun.

Among mine, an Oregon Kimber Ultra Varmint in 223.

I'd be okay with that from a M94 32WS.. Even 2X the group, it is still a buck gitter!

i used to own a Savage m340 in 222 Remington. it went somewhere around 3/8 - 1/2" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench) with 50gr Hornady SP and a max charge of H322. i bought it second hand (or third or fourth) and i put on 6x Swift. i shot the crap out of it, 5000 - 6000 rounds, until i burned out the barrel. my gunsmith said he would put on a brand new Douglas barrel in 222, but i said no and sold it for a Remington m700. stupid!!! that is one rifle that i never should have sold. groundhogs and foxes stopped shaking the moment i sold her. stupid, stupid stupid!!!!!

back in the early '90s i bought a ss Ruger SRH (7.5" barrel) in 44 Mag. 200gr and 240gr Hornady XTP with a warm charge of Win296 really would kill deer. the 200gr and 240gr XTP would go around 1 1/4 - 1 3/4" at 100 yards (5 shots/bench). once, and only once, the 200gr XTP would go around 3/4" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench). all shots were factory sights, i had a Aimpoint red dot, but i quickly got rid of it. the furthest shot was around 120 yards+/- on a big doe. i had to sell it and many more for my divorce lawyer. i bought another one about 15+/- years ago, but it wasn't as accurate as before. 240gr XTP with Win296 would go around 2 1/2" +. since my stroke, i sold it and bought a Ruger SBH (4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag. i use it in a 44 special with 250gr penta hp/255gr Kieth-type SWC and a Skeeter load of Unique and 44 Mag with 280gr WFN and Unique/2400. i can go with either of these bullets, 2 - 3" group at 50 yards (5 shots/bench or 3 legged Bog Pod). i've killed a number of deer with it, esp the 44 Special.

JC189:

I use a similar illustration to get the point across.

Winchester 94 Wrangler II with Weaver 1-3x. Shoots the old Canadian Imperial load (1600 fps) into sub inch 100 yard groups. No reason this tiny lever gun in the antiquated cartridge should shoot that well.





BSA Enfield Sporter .303 British with Weaver 4x shoots Woodleigh 215gr into groups the size of a penny





Ruger 77 .450 Bushmaster with factory Hornady shoots groups like this

Had 2 7mm Mauser Brazilian barrels installed. 1 on a Steyr 1912 and one on a Yugo 24/47.
Both are 1" guns with a mild load.

A Black Nitride treated, pre-WW II Savage Model 219 in .30-30 at 100 yards with its favorite cast bullet load:

I've been shooting competitively, off and on for 55 years. I've shot in various disciplines which required accuracy, precision, or both. I've built rifles for all sorts of competitions as well. Every discussion I hear about the difference between the two, accuracy and precision, is just about as off-putting as anything can be.
As to rifles which surprised me with their accuracy, or precision; take your pick, one of the most memorable was a Weatherby MKV in 270 WM. What set this rifle apart from other Weatherbys, was the definite bulge in the barrel, about 2 inches back from the muzzle. I took it out to test it, prior to cutting the barrel back. I was pleasantly surprised when the first shot hit three inches high and centered. The second shot missed the paper; this was more like what I expected. I fired the third, just out a sense of obligation, and darned if it didn't hit 1/2 inch to the right of the first shot. I walked up and had a look and noticed the first hole was slightly oblong. I shot anther two and had five shots in about 5/8 inch. I was truly amazed.
Another was a P14 with more than a little pitting in the bore. I don't think it ever shot a group over an inch. A friend came out to show me his MOA guaranteed Vangard. Sure enough, it put three shots into an inch. I sat down with the P14 and put three into a little over a half. There have been a lot, over the years, but these two stand out. GD

I would agree--and I get it. But aside from my explanation that the two major English dictionaries say precision and accuracy mean the same thing, I'll make the following points:

1) Children would naturally understand it--especially if they've never been told before what accuracy and precision mean, or that in general use they're considered synonyms.

!) The choice to use those terms to define the difference between groups and hitting a certain spot didn't appear until after World War Two. I have a pretty large library of books about firearms, and the earliest book where it appears is Rifle Precision, the 1951 Bench Rest Shooter's Annual, edited and partly written by Townsend Whelen.

Switching the "benchrest" definitions of precision and accuracy would have worked just as well. Dunno if somebody flipped a coin, but....

English dictionaries (especially Webster's) generally define words by "general usage," meaning what most people think they mean. Which is why I stated the definitions you (and others) state of "accuracy" and "precision" are indeed jargon. That doesn't mean they're invalid in that smaller context, but also doesn't mean that MOST people (not just a small subset of rifle shooters) think they mean different things.

In general, big game hunters regard "accuracy" as group size, whether 3-shot or 5-shot, which is why I use that term in my articles--because it's "common usage."

I have seen several Remington 788s that would consistently shoot some incredible groups

Mine is a Bubba'd WWI Mauser 98 I found on the used rack. The stock looked to have been sporterized bY either a 6 year old or me on a good day. The barrel appeared to have been cut down as the front sight was gone and the barrel was flat across the muzzle. I was fortunate to have had the rear sight left in place. The bolt handle was bent enough to clear a 3-9 x40 scope and had been correctly drilled and tapped for a scope base. Something screamed "student gunsmith" in my mind regarding this gun. For $70 I had to give it a whirl.

It gave me lackluster accuracy when I initially sighted in the scope but when I tried a starting load with Varget and a 150 gr Hornady the rifle got interesting. The first three rounds at 100 yards were touching and subsequent groups were pretty much the same. The gun with this load is currently my loaner for those starting out deer hunting. Velocity is about half way between a 30/30 and a 300 Savage when using 150 gr bullets in each. I tried putting the action in a "nicer" Butler Creek stock and later a Bishop but accuracy headed south both times. I learned my lesson and the gun will remain "as is".

I’ve got a savage 116 weather warrior in 30-06, loves 150g Hornady Interlocs. 5 shot clovers.

Accuracy and precision are quite useful attributes.

Case in point: Due to a storm you no longer have running water or power. The toilet is full and you strained your back and can't sit down anyway. 1" hail is falling outside but your REALLY have to pee. Only container you can find is an empty gallon milk jug. If you put it on the table it's too high, so you place it on an upholstered chair. Your goal is to not get any on the upholstery. It can be done if you are both accurate and precise with your aim.

Here's a couple groups from a 358NM.

Dan can always count on you to bring a real world example😁👍!!

In science, specifically statistical analysis, accuracy and precision have two distinct meanings and if used interchangeably would lead to great confusion - when applied to rifle shooting they also “should” have two different meanings as some have pointed out. The dilution of language/meaning and specific meaning of words is concerning to some of us.

That all said - I had a scoped T/C Contender in .256 Winchester Magnum surprise the hell out of me with a five shot group at 75 yards less than 1/3”. A Marlin 1895 in .40-65 that would cut cloverleafs at 50 yards with factory irons and a Marlin 1894 in .22 Magnum that would group less than 1/4” at 50 yards for five shots with and old Weaver K-3 and the old Federal Sierra 30 grain hollow points (wish I would have bought cases of that ammo!!). Don’t know if they would do this all day every day and don’t really care - surprised me either way!

PennDog

back in the early to mid '90s, my dad (RIP) bought a TC Contender in a 14" muzzle brake in 7x30 Waters with a 2 1/4 or 2 1/2x Swift. it was his first specialty pistol, so he had to learn how to shoot again. he got a 1 - 1 1/2" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench) with a 115gr Speer HP and IMR4895. he would shoot it every day, except when it rains. he shot 10 -15 cartridges every day, spring, summer and fall. he took a 1 1/2" group to 1/4 - 1/2" group at 100 yards with the same load. i shot 1 1/2 - 1 3/4" group at 100 yards with the same load.

deer season came and he got a 6pt and a doe. nothing spectacular range wise, just 20-30 yards before the 115gr HP impacted the deer. i can't count the deer he killed with the 7x30 Waters. the only thing bad about the Waters is the muzzle brake. you could see the concussion wave after he shot and unless you are directly behind him, the concussion will make your eyes water and the ears will go deaf with eyeglasses and ear plugs. without them you go deaf for about 20 minutes with an eeeeeeeeee sound that just doesn't quit. i know, i was standing on side about 5 feet away when i got it.

i've gotten his guns and altho i like 7x30 Waters and the muzzle brake, i wound use it. he always told me about the 30 Herrett, so i bought one and another barrel. 30 and 357 Herrett in 10" barrels and a 22 Hornet in a 10" Contender barrel.

I showed this a few years ago and thought would post it again... This is a Remington 141 in 30 Remington. I had experienced very good accuracy while sighting it in with a low power hunting scope and thought I'd see what it would do. I put a scope on it that I usually only use when I'm having problems with a rifle and need a scope that will let me get the most out of the rifle.

That old Remington pump will out shoot, or at least keep up with, most of the bolt actions in my safe.



Three shots at 100 yards. I'm happy with it!

Laughing out loud!

You might want to read this history of the Oxford English Dictionary--
https://www.oed.com/information/about-the-oed/history-of-the-oed/?tl=true.

This might modify your notion that "The dilution of language/meaning and specific meaning of words is concerning to some of us."

All modern languages are living and hence changing. Even in Germany, where it's supposedly frozen in time by an official board of language, they're still waffling on whether ALL nouns should be capitalized, instead of just proper nouns, the tradition in English.

Just because certain disciplines, whether benchrest shooting or statistical analysis, have their own specialized meanings doesn't mean that's the ONLY meaning for certain words. (I am quite familiar with statistical analysis, due to my years as a wildlife biology major--as was my mother when doing the research for her Ph.D. on behavioral analysis.)

You also might check the rest of the posts on this thread, and add up how many involve group size as a definition of "accuracy." This is a good example of "common usage."

In certain urban settings, imprecise use of a word can be taken as disrespect, such that the word “incoming” will take on a very precise and intense meaning.

Winchester 43 in 22 Hornet with a Weaver K6. 100 yd. 10 shot groups under 1" consistently, with the occasional flyer, using Winchester 46gr factory hp. Wont shoot the Remington 45 gr SP worth beans. Go figure.

Exchipy shows a great example of accuracy vs. precision. Accuracy is hitting what you are aiming at, and he did that well. This is an example that demonstrates the difference between the 2:


The guy showing a pic of a one hole group, but not hitting what he's aiming at, is a great example of "precision" of the rifle, because of the tight group. However, that's not the same thing as "accuracy". Trying to bend the words to suit ones own needs, is what's wrong with this f'd up world. Some of us tire of that woke kind of bs...

I use that same image to teach statistics at university level.

I also make sure that the students know that I am a shooter!

/John

I have an old lever 45/70 that shoots into one hole every time I go to the range. It's also extremely efficient on ammo useing only one round per range trip

IME, most guys on "sight-in" days, would take the top left target, no matter the size at 50 yrds, and call it "good enough".
After all, one is in the center. Accuracy vs precision would make their eyes cross.

I have an old H&R single shot 30-30 I bought cheap with zero expectations but it shoots pretty amazing.

The H&R/NEF 30/30s I've had were all good
shooters. All the Marlin 30/30s I've used did
as good. No gotaways

Appreciate the insight John - However, I tried not to use any ABSOLUTES in my statement only that the two have a definitive meaning in the world I was trained in……as an evolutionary ecologist I understand that ALL parts of our world are evolving and that languages indeed are a part of that.

…….and the common usage of accuracy (in the world of rifle shooting) is certainly a dilution.

PennDog

No offense but I wouldn't call 1.5" groups "accurate" regardless of the action type or caliber. I've had a few lever guns that would consistently group 3/4" with handloads.

Had a similar experience. Had bought a 141 Rem in 35 rem from a member here and sighted in at 50yds open sights. Hit dead center with factory Hornady 160gr FTX ammo. This was done at my buddies ranch and he said "see if can hit the 200yd plate!" I sat down on the ground old school style cradled the rifle and bang right dead center! My buddy was like how much you want for that rifle lol. Told him it's not for sale. Ended up shooting an Axis with it later on the day.

had a pair of Ruger 77's in 7 x 57. These two rifles could must a 5 inch group at 100 yds on their best day at the range.

Was about to chuck one in the river and rebarrel the other to a 6mm Remington.

Don't know why, but a load in a reload manual jumped out at me. I think it was an older Hornady manual I had.
Took it out to the range, not expecting much. That didn't happen THIS TIME. I got a 5 shot group that was half an inch.
What the hell???

Don't recall the bullet weight, but the charge was 40 grains of 3031, and the bullet was either 160 or 175 grainer, one of the heavier ones. Thought this was a fluke, so I went home loaded up some more and took them back to the range, the next day. SAME RESULTS! Half inch group. Well one going in the river and the other getting rebarreled, was put on hold.

Both rifles gave the same results, with the 40 grains of 3031. I tried the same load on bullet weights from 130 grain Speers right up to the 175 grain bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Remington and Winchester IIRC. Every one of them shot small groups, 1/2 an inch or less for 5 shots.

One of our members in PA asked if I'd sell one to him, so I let it go, with full disclosure, that it shot like a blind kid with a slingshot, EXCEPT when ya use 40 grains of 3031. Guess you can figure out what load and powder that rifle has survived on over the last 25 years or so. I think it was Moose Mike, that the other one went to... Don't know if he still has it, but the brother of it that still resides here in Oregon... still keeps turning in 1/2 inch groups with that charge of 40 grs of 3031, REGARDLESS of the bullet weight or brand of bullet.... and IT STILL WON'T shoot anything else in under a 5 inch group.

Weird, but I don't question what is successful and works.

The other 7 x 57 I have is a Model 70 Featherweight. Paid $300 for that one also. Guy sold it because he could never find ammo for it. For the $300, it even came with a Nikon 3 x 9 scope in Leupold mounts with it. Guess the guy just wanted to get rid of it. That rifle thinks it is a varmint rifle.... It'll shoot anything I feed it, regardless of load or powder, or bullet weight, or bullet brand... all into small groups. The Nikon got replaced with a Leupold 3 x 9 with a German # 1 Reticle, just rounding out the Teutonic theme of the 7 x 57. In fairness the previous owner had it glass bedded and had a trigger job done on it. its one of my rifles I'll own on the day I die. Then its my son's, to do with what he desires. He really isn't a hunter, so I hope it finds a good loving home, when that day comes.

when I started using Blue Dot to shoot ground squirrels, I ended up with about 2000 of those 46 grain HP bullets that I got for about $60. the load was 12.5 grains of Blue Dot with Small Pistol primers. I tried the load out first with the Small Pistol primer and it shot small tiny groups, so that is what I used with it.

Sent a lot of sage rats to the alfalfa fields of sage rat heaven with those bullets... Got another batch for a little more than the first 2000 I paid $60 for.... They shot awfully well with Blue Dot also.

Those bullets were nothing special to look at... not 'bad ass' looking or anything... But by Gosh did they work real well and were accurate as hell. Still got some of them around here somewhere.... but I think I went thru about 8 or 10K of them, for he cheap price of $60 to $75 for 2000 each.

Did the job with high precision, from 50 yds out to 300 pretty consistently... and sure made a mess out of a ground squirrel.

I have had more rifles fail to impress...

But #1 would be a CZ Varmint in 17HMR. Have shot multiple 100 yard, 10 shot, sub MOA groups with it.

#2 would an original Remington stainless synthetic mountain rifle circa 1992. Burned the first barrel out, which was finicky and could never get to published velocities without pressure.

My first trip to the range with a new barrel impressed. I shot multiple sub MOA groups while doing load development. At published velocities I might add. Rifle has continued to be very precise, and accurate when I do my part.

I have a big heavy .260 that is literally more accurate than I. If the groups open to a half inch for three , Its me . When I check the zero at 100 yds. I take a target and draw on it with a a pen to get the zero wanted for long range and dialing . I have had 5 shot groups that were an inch with three different sight settings to get my zero proper for distance work. Best group shot with the rifle in my hands was one day one the prairie in fairly calm steady conditions ,it held three shots , centered on target into 3.5" . Shoot while laying prone with bipod and good rear bag at 980 yds. I may not be able to repeat it, but the gun is capable. It is not surprising though because a lot of effort and care has went into this gun, And I baby it .

2019 I bought a NIB Remington 700 SPS .223 to use as a donor. I had 8 hand loads of .223 left from another rifle that had gone down the road, shot three to get it on, moved target out to 100, and it put the next 5 under an inch. Went to loading bench, loaded up 20 more, and it shot 10 under an inch. I since put a Trigger Tech trigger on it, which along with load development has made it a sub moa rifle.

Never shoot the donor.

Just as some of us tire of this sort of pedantic bull crap. GD

Yes. It’s more about the Indian and not the arrow. A good hunter can get dinner with his bare hands if needed.

I have a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun that I chopped to 16" that will, or would shoot 100 yard clover leafs. That with a 2x scout scope. Never tried 5 round groups as I thought it irrelevant to its actual use. I say would because I don't know that I could shoot it as well today, my eyes and hands hove betrayed me.


This thread did make me think of my dad's 99 in .308

It'll put one right where you want it. And the next one right next to it. If you try for three, it'll be an inch or two away. 4 & 5 will open you up to a nice 4-5 inch group.

OK, I wasn't going to answer, but here goes. I'm Remington lucky I guess. But have at least 3 that group 5 shots under a half inch.

But one should fall into the "Unusual Accuracy" category. A 20" pencil barrel M7 in 223 with a 3-9 compact scope. My truck gun. I've won money with the damn thing when guys start braggin about their varmint rifles. I don't even want or need it anymore, but can't make myself sell a rifle that accurate.

There's good factory rifles out there, guess ya gotta sort through the not so good ones to find them.

one time i bought a Remington m700 Mountain rifle in '06 that it's smallest group was 1 1/2" at 100 yards (3 shots/bench). it would be 4 or 5" for 5 shots. i did many different powders and bullets and it was not accurate. 3 to 4" group at 100 yards were average. altho 1 or 2 feet at 100 yards would come up every once in a while. i did everything, scope and mounts were changed, bedded it, change to a synthetic stock, did the bore scope thing and everything was fine, looked at the crown and i didn't find nothing wrong...it was just inaccurate.