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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself. Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used. Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity. Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian? Perhaps he was not.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself. Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used. Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity. Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian? Perhaps he was not. His journey is well chronicled. You don't have to believe me, you can read about it yourself.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A/S: Bad news. I'm back on ignore with my boy Snoopy. I didn't think I was being confrontational.
I like discussions that make me think and I like to mentally attack my own beliefs and assumptions. It has not for a long time seemed to me a good idea to stake out a position and refuse to consider it doesn't make sense.
A Southern Baptist lady friend of ours called me recently and invited me to come to her church. I told her I wouldn't fit in well there due to drinking 6 or 7 beers a week and the fact that I wasn't Trinitarian and also I believed some of the NT was forged. She told me right quick that she wasn't going to have to stand before Jesus some day and explain why she did not believe parts of his holy book.
We are still friends and are politically aligned but the church invitation subject was dropped and I don't believe the beer had any part in that. Guess you're just too much of a rebel for some. No a "True" enough "Christian" for them.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches. Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!!
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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You simply don’t believe the truth, especially if it doesn’t jive with your already established beliefs and agenda. You want the truth to be what you believe. Think about what you have written here. Think hard about who this describes. It describes you, to a T, when it comes to your Hebrew Roots Movement psychobabble. It is not me that has "established beliefs and agenda". I admit there's a lot I don't know. The record is sparse but it does show a huge rift between Jesus' first churches in the years after his death and a certain revisionist of his message. That is clear. He had to be rescued by the Roman Army. Jesus clearly did not claim to be God. He talked about God constantly as his father, prayed to God, gave credit to God. I wasn't there. I could be wrong. I don't have "established beliefs and agenda". But I don't believe God cancelled the covenant and the miracle of the reincarnated nation of Israel is a huge clue. I will keep an open mind but the record of the early Christian followers of Jesus that formed churches in Jerusalem, Asia Minor, and even Ethiopia indicates they maintained a fealty to the Hebrew faith and expelled a preacher that claimed visions to the contrary. I will keep reading the scriptures that we have and some of the discarded ones, but I cannot find evidence that Jesus claimed he was God. The statement about the Father and I are ONE is ambiguous at the very longest stretch, and I would take it to mean " I speak for my Father who sent me". Here we go yet again… John’s gospel clearly emphasizes the deity of Jesus. When Jesus said He was the “I Am” (Almighty God), He was expressing His deity, all the way back to Exodus 3:14. If you don’t believe Jesus is the “I Am”, you will die in your sins, John 6:24 How can Jesus give life if He isn’t God? John 5:21 How can Jesus be our judge if He isn’t God? John 5:22 How can Jesus be the living bread of life if He isn’t God? John 6:35, 48 With the living bread of Jesus, one will live forever, John 6:51 How can Jesus raise people up on the last day if He isn’t God? John 6:40, 54 How can Jesus and the Father be ONE if Jesus isn’t God? John 10:30 How can Jesus be the source of the resurrection and life if He isn’t God? John 11:25 If you don’t believe Jesus is God, you don’t have eternal life, John 3:36. Jesus is the source of eternal life. You don’t want to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord so you can have eternal life, John 5:40. Jesus affirmed His deity in just that one verse. No one will force you to accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord. You can continue to reject Jesus as the source of life and salvation because human will allows that choice. There are simply some who do not believe, John 6:64 Eyes are blinded and hearts are hardened, John 12:40 There is only ONE way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, John 14:6 The one who rejects Jesus also rejects the Father, John 15:23 And that is only the book of John… Have you noticed that John's accounts are often out of sequence with the synoptic gospels and that the last chapter appears to be a later addition? Also John does a good bit of interpretive commenting of his own to explain what Jesus was saying. And another issue that requires care in discerning Jesus' teachings is the losses that occur in interpreting things spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew and translated decades later into Greek and now several English versions. It is almost amusing to hear ignorant preachers (and others) explain to ignorant audiences the real meaning of the original Greek when they have no way of knowing the veracity of what they say. I'm guessing Greek has evolved as have other languages in 2000 years. By ignorant I mean unknowing not at all implying stupid although that might come into play also. All in all I believe Jesus' core teachings came through if we stick to that. If you think about it, just the fact that the NT was written in Greek, more specifically a high form of Greek is a major problem in and of itself. Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used. Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity. Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian? Perhaps he was not. His journey is well chronicled. You don't have to believe me, you can read about it yourself. Quite awhile ago, I read one of his books and a number of his articles. I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused. Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?” Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Ranger
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Why don't you have a discussion about the fact that sure evidence for one individual may not serve as any evidence for another, and the forever subjectivity of that matter. It might illuminate the futility of these puerile yakking matches. Evidence supports a claim that all can agree concurs with reality - it's not subjective. Belief in a god has no evidence and is divorced from reality, and is entirely subjective - thousands of Christian denominations are evidence of this fact and reality. Here endeth this lesson. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree. Bingo, my point exactly. No evidence therefore anything goes. My god is better than your god...yadda, yadda, yadda... Reality not required, LOL!!! You put the BINGO squarely on yourself and highlight the usual disingenuous behavior by deliberately omitting the part of the post that you apparently wish ignored. Here is the whole thing - again: "Your first statement there is quite faulty. Your use of "all" is a gross assumption based on zero evidence of that factor. What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another, etc.. Please cite a claim about God on which ALL agree.
Further, there need not be any such "claim" in order for one to experience evidence. Claims seem to be the action of those who wish to prove some point of view or secure a corner on some claimed reality. Objectivity is not created by such claims, or by your sentence."
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Sort of. Born Catholic, have since transcended to a higher level of understanding. I suppose that if one is interested they can PM me, or quarrel with me here. What matters more to me is that others catch on. Here is a hint: what you "know" has been tainted by (((adversaries))); just know, that you(!) are the hand of "God".
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I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus? Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith? Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place?
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Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not. Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate. The gospels accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English. There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event.
Last edited by Hastings; 04/01/24. Reason: spelling correction
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Religion and God are unrelated. Science and God are definitely compatible. We are predestined to heaven or hell and nothing can change that.
Last edited by Swampman700; 04/01/24.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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We are predestined to heaven or hell and nothing can change that. Says who?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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Campfire Regular
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I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus? Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith? Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place? You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game. I am referring to Bart Ehrman. But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?” Do you have any idea? You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine. So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways. 1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion. 2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion. 3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.” So, DBT…. Have at it.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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"The ground is level at the foot of the Cross,"
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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IF there is true predestination/Calvinism.
Why are the proponents of it evangelistic?
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Nope, not a problem at all. Greek was widely used all around the Mediterranean and widely used.
Btw…. As I recall, you referred to Bart Ehrman as being a Christian who later renounced Christianity.
Why would you accept that Bart was a Christian?
Perhaps he was not. Whatever, but you can bet the teachings and words of Jesus were not spoken in High Greek, Low Greek, or any form of Greek and you can bet Matthew never spoke or wrote anything in Greek, likewise the commercial fisherman Peter almost surely would not have bee a speaker of Greek if he was even literate. The gospels we accounts of Jesus we have were spoken in a language that was not Greek, translated into Greek from memory, and now into several versions of English. There are always losses in translation and eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Go to court sometimes and listen to 3 or 4 witnesses describe the same event. Keep in mind by High Greek the language is akin to Shakespearian English in the time of the Rennaissance. It was not the Greek of common people, but the language and style of playwrights and Scholars.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Please be specific. The bible is a collection of writings or if you prefer, books. Who says we are predestined and have no choice?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Outfitter
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Please be specific. The bible is a collection of writings or if you prefer, books. Who says we are predestined and have no choice? 'Agape' demands a choice.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
( . Y . )
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I believe in predestination,
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o
"May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I know what I think of Bart Ehrman, but it seems to be he is both angry with God and confused.
Why would YOU think that he ever was a “Christian?”
Why would YOU accept that he was a Christian that renounced his belief in Jesus? Are you suggesting that there are no examples of Christians who have lost their faith? Or perhaps you think they were never "True Christians tm" in the first place? You’re talking to yourself again, trying to get ahead of the game. I am referring to Bart Ehrman. But, since you asked…. What makes someone a “True Christian?” Do you have any idea? You have referred to the term, but I suspect you have only the tiniest bit of knowledge of Christian doctrine. So….should you choose, you can respond in a number of ways. 1.- Some empty headed smart remark, that shows you can’t keep up in the discussion. 2. - You can do an internet search and do some sort of cut and paste, that shows you are incapable of keeping up with the discussion. 3.- Contribute some sort of your own thought or conjecture on the subject what makes a “True Christian.” So, DBT…. Have at it. No, he's alluding to your use of The True Scotsman Fallacy, insinuating Bart was not a "True Christian". Bart initially went to Moody Bible Institute. This is a school for true believers. He finished his undergrad at Wheaton before going on to Prinston for his Masters and PHD. The more he learned, the more holes he saw. It's a simple straight forward story. Yes, knowledge and logic lead him from Christianity. I understand you don't like the idea the knowledge and logic demonstrate the short comings of your beliefs, but for the open minded, it does.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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