Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Semi autos for outdoors defense

Friends,

I was out doing some testing of loads and decided to run a couple of 6 shot drills with the 9mm 148 grain +P hardcast flatpoint, and the .45 ACP 250 grain hardcast flatpoint that I produce.

I was using a Glock 19 and a Glock 21 for the drills. BTW, the velocity for the loads are 1100 FPS for the 9mm and 925 FPS for the .45 ACP.

I was shooting at a steel plate that I had brought along. I managed to leave my stand at home but propped it up with the arm that connects to the stand. When hammering on it with the .45 it was falling over and the last round went over it as the plate fell.

The results

With the heavy .45 250 grain +Ps in the G21:

.43 was the first shot.
1.56 was the last shot.

So 1.13 seconds for 6 shots.

Bear in mind that I don't shoot competition anymore and I am not as fast as I used to be, and I didn't do any warm ups. But I figure that was good enough.

















With the little Glock 19 using the 148 grain +P flat points:


.55 reaction time to first shot.
1.57 was the 6th shot.
So 1.02 seconds for 6 shots.







I ran the G19 again, and finished at 1.58, so it was pretty obvious that that was where my "window" was for getting fast hits.




What was interesting (to me) was that there was basically a 1/10th of a second difference in time between the heavy 250 grain .45 +Ps and the 9mm 148 +Ps. The .45s definitely have more recoil, but for six shots, 1/10th of a second really is not something I am going to be concerned about. Bearing in mind that I have put a LOT of heavy loads through G21s and am used to shooting them, so that is a factor.

Either will work and I will continue to use both. It will just depend on the circumstances of where I am going and what my needs are at that time.

Ever tested a 40?

I am sure I have done 6 shot drills with 40s.

However, I did not do any that day, and I have not done any with my heavy poly SWC load that I make. That load does 1200 FPS out of a Glock 22, which is flat moving.




In this case I was out doing some chrono and accuracy testing and decided to run a couple quick drills with the 9mm and .45.


The punchline is that I can run these guns FAR faster than I can a DA revolver. I am a huge fan of the .44 magnum, especially in a Model 29, but I acknowledge that I cannot shoot it near as fast as I can a Glock 21. I am comfortable carrying either in the mountains around Grizzly bears, but I acknowledge that there are advantages to the semi auto platforms (for me). For others, they may be more comfortable with a double action revolver.

I have done a fair bit of practice with a .44 magnum and you can shoot it fast, but it takes an experienced shooter to shoot one quickly and accurately versus just making noise.

Great info Ted, thanks! Whether it translates directly to someone like me is debatable - you probably shoot fifty times as much as I do - but it gives us heathens an idea of what’s possible. I know I can shoot a good DA/SA auto (HK Expert/ CZ Custom CZ97) faster than any of my revolvers in DA. I am making an effort to train more these days.

Well, both those loads are real He-Man variety, for sure.

Would be interested to know the pressures.

MM

I bought both these loads and shoot them in a Glock 21.5 and a Glock 45, both MOS and set up with the same HS 507c red dot.

They are both easier to shoot than one would think. Lately I’ve been carrying the G45 when pig hunting simply because it’s less weight. I have equal faith in both rounds and don’t ever see myself going back to a revolver again. The ability to dump 13 or 17 rounds of a good hard cast bullet is pretty comforting.

That Gen 5 G21 is such a soft shooting gun it is truly amazing.

G21s have long been known to have soft recoil as compared to a 1911. But the Gen 5 takes it to another level. I was out shooting a while back and ran some generic ball ammo through the gun, confirming the RDO was on. The recoil was so soft I thought something was wrong, so I stepped over to the chronograph and ran a couple rounds through the it. Nope. They were typical factory 230 grain ball, which was advertised as 800 FPS, but was really doing about 750. It felt like it was going in the 600s.

Shooting the big 250 grain flatpoints through the G21 Gen 5 is eye opening in the way the gun absorbs the recoil. That gun is absolutely the softest shooting .45 I have ever shot, hands down.

My Glock Gen 3 SF 10mm is my most used outdoor packing pistol when in bear, hog, lion country. Fifteen 220 gr. hardcast at 1200 fps is no joke and I shoot it better than a magnum revolver.

Yes, they are very soft shooting for sure, don't own one but have shot them enough to fully agree.

Never shot a Gen 5 in 45 though. What do you think makes it noticeably better on felt recoil?

MM

The heavier slide, combined with heavier spring weights and dual recoil system no doubt contribute to the softer recoil. The standard G21 Gen 3 is a soft shooting gun already, but the gen 5 is even more so. As much as I am a long time 1911 guy, there is no comparison when it comes to recoil.

There is no substitute for real hands on experience

If those times are from a draw, you've got Miculek beat. That's smoking fast. What distance?

we don't, of course, have grizzly bears or Moose down here in FL, but I can say that a heavy loaded 10MM ( Using a Glock 40) will stop a large hog from messing with you.

I frequently carry my gen3 G21 or G22 and never feel lacking.

Reality is that plastic framed striker fired autos are more reliable in dirty conditions than revolvers.

Optics on a self defense pistol are stupid.

[/quote] Optics on a self defense pistol are stupid.[/quote]


Says someone who obviously has NO idea what they are talking about.

In a true self defense situation (arms reach) no sights, optics, etc. are needed. However, my woods carry gun needs optics AND it doubles as a self-defense firearm.

Shhh. The adults are talking. Go sit in the corner and listen a spell. You might learn something.

I am an unapologetic revolver fan for several reasons, but I can't deny that pistols---and Glocks in particular---are better in many situations.

Belly crawling and busting brush has a way of getting dirt and grime into the weirdest of places. The gaps between the frame and cylinder are especially vulnerable, sometimes even when in a holster. Alder twigs and leaves crammed in there can jam a cylinder from rotating: ask me how I know.

Great thread and thanks for the Info, Mackay.
Was just wondering what the distance of the shots in your drill was ?

Also wondering if you have tried the same drill with your 10mm Hard Cast loads in a Glock 20 ?
And if not, will you please do so in the future to give us comparable times ?
It would be interesting to see the difference.
My Glock 20 with the 220 gr hard cast BB loads definitely has quite a bit more recoil than my Glock 21 with comparable loads.

I’ll readily admit the Glock 21 is the softest shooting 45 acp I own. Mines a Gen 3. I need to go ahead and upgrade to a Gen 5 with optics, for these “old eyes”. The sights on my guns are not near as “sharp” as they used to be. 😬

Thanks again for another great post.

Mack, as you know I've always been a longtime proponent of my S&W Mountain Guns in both 44 and 45 Colt flavors, but reality set in that as I've aged, quick, accurate shooting has deteriorated with my big wheel guns.

Hence the reason I have made the move to a Kimber Camp Guard 10 mm as my field gun now. 200 gr Hard cast are potent pills out of a 10mm that's for certain and the recoil impulse is better suited for me and my circumstances.

Keep loading that wonderful ammunition and good luck!


Frog---OUT!

Then, there is the .460 Rowland kits with the compensators for steel and plastic guns.

https://460rowland.com/

That .960 is impressive too.

The auto loader has a great deal to recommend it for outdoor use. A successful quest for appropriate ammunition is an excellent achievement.

I haven't played much with autos vs revolvers in cold temps. I may have to experiment a bit with that, as revolvers still may hold an edge there.
I do know that my AR-15 and a couple of different .22 LR semi-autos won't cycle at -20F, even when degreased, and regreased with 'extreme low temp' gun oil, but I only used a few mid powered factory loads so that may have been part of the issue. Same with my Springfield 1911 .45 ACP. Even a couple of pump shotguns have had the trigger/sear/hammer gum up in those temps, with that 'low temp' oil applied.

I degrease and then dry graphite lube bolts/firing pin assemblys in my bolt guns in those temps, plus my trapping revolver and they have worked fine, down to -40F.

While I know those temps aren't realistic for a lot of what you all are discussing, I still think it is worth mentioning.

I've seen the slide on my auto loaders operate visibly slower at temps in the minus zero F° range, but I've never had a stoppage. The experience gave me a preference for revolvers in the cold when I was younger. I'm not sure I'd be as concerned now. I'd definitely be particularly focused on careful prep of the gun before carry. The slim profile of certain guns does make them easy to protect under clothing, and access from beneath that clothing.

Optics on a self defense pistol are stupid. I'm guessing you probably have optics on yours.

Why do you say optics are stupid?

Optics on pistols is the future. In another 10 years, maybe less, you will see them on the majority of handguns carried by LE and the military.

Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

Optics are more accurate and faster and that is a proven fact
If you will do not realize this, then you are too stubborn to see reality.

I have had my 4" Model 29 freeze up and the cylinder become inoperable after taking a tumble into the snow. Plus carrying it close to my body in a tanker rig, it made just enough of a difference that the metal was a slightly warmer temperature and it attracted moisture. I could cock the hammer back, but the cylinder would not rotate. I worked my way back to the truck and stuck it up on the dash, and let the defroster thaw it out while I continued my jackrabbit safari with a Glock 21 .45 acp, which ran flawlessly no matter how cold it was.




A few years back a number of us gathered at Ken Hackathorn's place for a cold weather shoot. I cannot remember exactly how cold it was but it was well below zero and it was a good observation of both how men and machines operate differently in temps around -20s or so. Proper lubrication of weapons is critical. People definitely slow down and have to think through processes such as reloading guns, putting guns back in holsters safely with numb hands, doing transition drills, etc.

When it comes to firearms, I use a very light layer of 0W-20 motor oil. This allows both handguns and rifles to work fine. It has been my experience, hunting in sub zero temps every year that the semi auto with loose tolerances, like a Glock (versus a 1911) is FAR more reliable than a revolver. A single bit of moisture from body perspiration will cause a revolver to freeze up when that migrates into the lockwork.

There is a very good reason why outfits like the Danish sled patrols use a Glock when operating in the arctic. They have conditions that are obviously rather harsh and chose equipment that would operate best in that environment. Many may not know it but they chose to use old 1917 Enfield 30-06 rifles as their primary rifle along with the Glock 10mms.

I have carried a Glock .45 with heavy loads for many years in the mountains and find it to be ideal for harsh environments. Plus I like the very lightweight to capacity ratio. That is hard to beat. Normally when I get an animal like an elk down, I will leave my rifle at the truck and just pack a handgun for subsequent trips back and forth, either using a pack frame or a game sled to transport the meat out.

Semi-auto handguns tolerate abuse and harsh conditions better than revolvers. Revolvers *might* tolerate neglect better. My cold weather hunting is from about 0* - low single-digit numbers with highs in the teens maybe. I use Ronson lighter fluid for lubrication. It is very thin, wicks excess liquid off, and leaves a thin oily residue on the gun parts. It is not for high-volume shooting but for a few days of hunting in the cold and a low volume of shots fired it works quite well.

I know for a fact that the FBI uses red dot sights. I'm not sure if it's a requirement across the board but they do use them.

Thanks Mackay, that is good info. I carry a XdM 45acp with the 13 rd mags and a load imitating yours in a HPG Recon. When carrying with that method, the extra weight of the 45 over a 9 isn't noticeable for me. So,I definitely prefer to have the 45.

Thanks for the insight. Glocks and similarly designed pistols absolutely have been the most reliable for me, in any conditions. I dearly love a 1911 .45 ACP but I just can't trust them in extreme cold, no matter how I prep them with lubrication. I can see ice buildup along a cylinder causing it to jam up like you experienced and I could only guess that taking the same tumble could have the same body heat/ice effect along a Glock's slide rail. Have you tried imitating that same situation with a Glock? I'd be curious as to how it would fare.

I keep a Ruger Single Six---my trapping revolver---in a holster under my bino harness so it rides much like a tanker holster and have taken several dumps on my snowshoes, along with a few snowmachine wrecks. I haven't had snow/ice be an issue with it yet after those dumps but maybe I am just lucky? -20F is business as normal on my line. -40F is when things really get interesting. This particular day was cold enough to completely gum up my shotgun's trigger/sear system, despite being degreased and dry graphite lubed (or maybe it was just re-lubed with 'extreme cold oil'-I don't recall). It wouldn't budge at all. The revolver worked fine though. I don't recall taking a tumble that day but the drifting snow may have had a similar effect. I want to say it was colder than -40F but can't be certain of that. It was cold enough that my pickup wouldn't start when I got back to it.

First, T-Inman that is a great picture. You have some great experiences, I always like reading your post.

I'm just musing in general here... If a revolver freezes, what needs to be done for it to function again in the field? Mac took his M29 back to the truck turned the heat on inside the truck and let it defrost the S&W. With a semi-auto drop the magazine, unload the chamber, and then vigorously rack the slide several times and dry fire it. If it won't dry fire and you absolutely have to access the inner workings it is easy to field strip the gun and maybe scrape or melt the snow or ice out of the trigger mechanism with a BIC lighter. I doubt many of us would take the sideplate off our revolvers in the field and blow the ice out. The modern striker-fired guns like the Glock, M&P, Sig, etc. are not only more robust in harsh conditions, but also easier to get back up and running if there is a problem. I truly love my S&W revolvers. But if push came to shove and I could only have one handgun in a wilderness survival situation my choice is easy. My G20 would be my choice.

That kind of performance is unfathomable to me. I can't imagine what you were like when you were shooting competition.

My Glock 20 would be my first choice also. My Glock 21 would be my second choice, of course, followed by my old Ruger Super BlackHawk. 🤠

I much prefer threads that Evolve vs. DEvolve. Thanks for good information.

I haven’t played in real cold temperatures for a while but I’d like to comment on revolver reliability. I learned the hard way when I hip carried a S&W out riding ATVs - I hit just a bit of dust/dirt in it and it froze up. I had to disassemble and clean it. Not a lot of fun. For that reason, I bought a Ruger Redhawk when I was in AK. Far fewer moving (delicate) pieces gave me better reliability.

And as far as lube goes, I would turn to very thin synthetic. Another AK lesson learned.

Bob

Two weeks into a three week canoe trip 25 years ago (Noatak River) my buddy and I both had grit lock up our Blackhawks. Easier to fix than removing a side plate, but still vexing. Since, I've continued to carry Blackhawks (and a few Smiths) for fun, but if at all serious it's either a plastic bottom feeder or a Ruger DA. If I should wash up on a gravel bar with every orifice packed I can toollessly break down either and flush. Currently alternate between an HK45 and a 4" Service Six, both with Lost River ammo.

I've had my XD-40 for about 20 years. That thing has been on my hip for miles and miles of hiking and hunting in Arizona. I have put down several wounded deer, killed coyotes, rabbits, even a bobcat with it. It gets carried far more than it gets shot, but never fails to answer the call when I do squeeze the trigger.

I have shot at a match or two that Miculek was at, and trust me, we are not in the same league. I am not sure he is even human. A lot of guys can shoot as fast (and much faster) than I can. Jerry Miculek can run a double action revolver trigger at speeds that should not be possible. Plus he can run a semi auto like nobody's business too.

I don't even rate anywhere close. My DA revolver six shot speeds are substantially slower as compared to my semi auto speeds. While I have no issue using one for defense, it takes a LOT more concentration/focus to do so, and it is simply easier to get fast and accurate hits (for me) with a 1911 or a Glock.

But between the 1911 and the Glock, I find the Glock to be a better outdoors tool for austere environments where the elements may play a factor. Plus they are lighter, require less maintenance and carry a lot more ammo. I still carry a 1911 frequently in the woods, and especially when it may be a trip that is combined with going into town (such as to dinner) as the 1911 conceals better for me than a big Glock 21 .45.

It simply depends on what I am doing. Tools in a toolbox.

For those 10mm fans,

I just finished up a run of 200 grain Poly Coat flat point. These are a bit faster than the traditional hardcast load previously offered. These (the Poly Coat) run 1180 FPS from a Glock 20, versus 1150 for the hard cast. That is where the reliability and accuracy sweet spot was in testing.





They are listed in the classifieds. Not on the website yet.

Thank you for sharing this company.
They are better priced than Buffalo Bore, Underwood, etc.

Just a shout out to Mackay and a big thumbs up to his ammo. Was out this afternoon to sight in a rifle for an acquaintance and took a couple pistols along. Was short on time so pretty limited number of rounds, but my Tanfoglio really liked the 200 gr 10mm loads. A brand new P320 45 compact also did very well with his +P 250 gr 45 ammo.

8 rounds benched at 25 yds with 1st round going a little high:

Looks well within minute of bear to me. Good shooting.

very nice shooting with good ammo!

I love semiautomatic pistols, but the ones I have are very high end and are made to tight tolerances for accuracy. That’s why I don’t carry them in the field. They’re all too tight and likely to pick up dirt or debris and not function. Most revolvers can function with some level of dirt and grime.

There is a reason the 1911 is made very loose. That’s why I couldn’t carry any of mine in the field. They are “too” accurate if that is possible.

No Less Bauer 1911s are not loose and they run and are exceptionally accurate.

Revolvers are not less prone to function in a dirty environment, infact they will not run with semi autos in those conditions

Great shooting and thanks for sharing!

For my finger length, I like the size and power of the Glock 22/23 for an outdoors gun. I could see a 20/21 being a great rough-country gun for those who they fit well.

If the 22/23 is your "Goldilocks" then a hot poly coated 170 SWC at 1200 FPS is just the ticket!




This one is a tackdriver too!

Sage: Why did you not load your 10mm with a larger meplat?

I am inclined to agree with this. Less openings / and exposed areas on movement to collect debris, fine powdery dirt/sand, freezing water / snow / ice.

I am definitely a revolver and exposed hammer semi auto guy, but begrudgingly I agree. The packed off fine powdery dust/dirt has personally giving me some noticeable sluggish operation on a couple of S&W wheel guns.

A few hours with a very dusty trail on a 4-wheeler and or Argo created the issues for me. I have never carried a Glock type in the same conditions, but suspect it would fair a bit better.

The revolvers, I also try keep a conscious and regular check on leaf and spruce needle / bark collection when pushing through those areas.

That should definitely work. Your ammo is getting great accuracy, especially for a .40! Is that with a factory Glock barrel?

Yep,

That is a stock Glock 22, Gen 3.

That load absolutely drives tacks. Love it. And with it being a poly coat, the velocity is right there on the edge of 10mm. Actually it beat some jacketed 10mm loads when I did some chrono testing.

This is definitely a powerhouse load and a great one for outdoors/all around use, if you don't want to step up to the .45/10mm frame size.

Various projectiles were tested. The one chosen was by far the best choice.

Reliability across multiple platforms is of far greater importance than meplat. If I was only loading for my own personal gun, then I might choose something different, but for a load that is going to be potentially used in 1911s, FN-10, Glocks, XDs, S&W M&Ps, CZs, etc, then other factors come into play.

Commercial loading is not the same as loading for personal use.

Reliability, accuracy and velocity. I want the ammo to work in a wide variety of handguns. One may find a single specific projectile type that works better, or perhaps drive it slower or faster to suit their gun or needs, but for a wide variety the load chosen was developed carefully.

I'm really liking the current poly coatings. I had some .475 bullets from a few years ago when it was first being used and it wouldn't stay on, sort of like paint. The new stuff stays on and seems like a game changer for cast bullets.

Feeding reliability. Thanks for the explanation.

Same here. One alternative- Springfield XDM 45 & 10mm. Or the S&W M&P. Both fit my hand better. Although, I have another Glock 30S headed my way. I plan on doing a grip reduction and stipple job on it.

Sorry, but this statement sounds contradictory.

Just guessing but I don’t think he meant to use a double negative. I was wondering myself.

That's what I'm guessing too, McInniss.

Semi autos are more reliable in a dirty environment, this is a proven fact

I have been carrying a P365 with 147 grain hard cast bullets on my hiking trips. We often hike in places where the more socially liberal man bun and rainbow crowd are often seen hiking. A concealable 40SW would be interesting, I had a 9mm shield and was not impressed so the 40 shield would not interest me, the G23 MOS is interesting but not sure it would ride IWB as well as the P365 nor offer that much more than a 147 grain 9mm. As much as I want to, I just cannot carry my G20 on these (might see a black bear) soiree's.

Dumb post!

Great shooting my friend and great info!

Les makes one of the tightest 1911s out there and are as accurate, if not more so than any other semi-custom 1911. Ive owned them all and Ive put them all to the test. Time and again the baers were the most accurate out to 100yds

So you did mean to say that revolvers are less prone to function in a dirty environments. That’s what we thought.

Kentucky Ballistics has a fun to watch YouTube channel. I saw them do a torture test with a Smith and Wesson model 500. It consisted of dipping the revolver in water and seeing if it would fire. His torture test for Glocks were feezing one in ice for 100 days, burying it in mude for 100 days, etc. sometimes he had to really force the slide to chamber a round but he got them to fire.