Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Fire forming without bullets!

I have a .280AI, I am considering fireforming without bullets, simply because, bullets are expensive, and I'd rather cut to the chase with a worked up load, then shoot the rifle quite alot.


What are the pitfalls and advantages, so to speak?

What procedure has anyone successfully used.

I have fireformed for years with 22.0-23.0 grains of bullseye and a quarter square of toilet paper on my 280 AI....that is indeed the way to go with fireforming. No additional wear and tear from bullets...no expense for bullets....and you get perfect shoulders everytime. The only drawback with the bullseye is it does heat up a barrel quickly. I take my time on a box of 20 fireformed rounds....

Of course, now I use the Nosler brass with great results.

Yep, shooting sure isn't a good thing. I've yet to have a powder/bullet combo in a 'fireforming' load that shot well not shoot well in the formed case. I run my fireforming loads pretty much full throttle with bullets/powder I want in the formed cases. Don't take long to get there, as always ymmv...

Trust me, you do not want to know what the throat temperature is when using Bullseye or Unique.

Give me fireforming with bullets any time.

Steve

Yep, I've never understood the aversion to shooting......

It's not "an aversion to shooting", you said you run the same load in fireforming that you do in fireformed, that makes a difference. I'll be shooting the same # of bullets either way.
That I didn't know, is the reason I asked.

Why would one use a powder/bullet for fireforming that they wouldn't use for the formed case? Sure you may or may not want to run some expensive bullets, but you can and it will give you a reference. All this is assuming you have a crush fit chamber and don't need to seat the bullet in the lands to get a formed case. You can find the seating depth, bullet that works well whilst fireforming and then all you do is 'up' the charge for the formed cases.

Like everything in life it don't always work as planned, but I wouldn't bet against it. I have killed deer with fireforming loads, beer bottles at 500yards, rocks at 700, etc.

What you say makes sense, I'll just loadem and shoot.

Why not just order 280 AI brass from Nosler like I did,saved time and money and didn't have to find another barrel to fire form in.

Cause I run that junky R-P brass.

One good reason NOT to use bullets to fireform today is that even the cheap ones cost a lot.

I might run a quick cost analysis on FFing with Bulleye and no bullet, FFing with bullets and Remington brass, and just using Nosler brass.

In my .25-06 AI I fireform with 10 grains of bullseye, fill the case with cornmeal and cap it with a dab of Elmer's glue. I've tried shooting factory loads also. With the BE and cornmeal I get better formed shoulders and no stretching ahead of the case head. With cases formed by firing factory loads I've blown caseheads after just a couple of uses. I don't get that problem with the BE formed cases.

Just curious: What do you mean precisely by "blown caseheads"?

Yeah, that sounds curiouser and curiouser.

If the Ackley chamber is properly cut, there should be no problems of any kind. It should be slightly "short" so that a crush fit is established between the chamber and the shoulder.

Remember when some folks left cornmeal in their fireform cases for a couple of weeks. It formed a solid mass and blew up a bunch of rifles. If you use this stuff, fire the rounds the same day as they were loaded. I would not be surprised if cornmeal is as abrasive as the Cream O' Wheat which has ruined not a few barrels for pilgrims.

Steve

Back to the earlier topic of cost. I just got the latest Midway Master Catalog #31, and got all prices from there. Here is the cost per case for various options mentioned in this thread for formed .280 AI brass:

1) Fireforming with 10 grains of Bullseye and Elmer's costs about 45 cents per case using Remington brass and the cheapest Large Rifle Primer available.

2) Same deal, with 22 grains of Bullseye and tissue paper, cost around 47 cents per case.

3) With the cheapest jacketed bullet avalable (Rem. Core-Lokt) and 50 grains of the cheapest powder available, cost is about 69 cents per case.

4) Cost per case of already formed Nosler Custom brass is $1.14.

Theere are other factors that may or may not apply to you. One is time. If you figure time at $20 per hour (about average in modern America) and per-case time at 1 minute per loading and firing, then 60 rounds costs another $20, or 33 cents more per case. If your time is "free" recreation time, then this obviously doesn't count--but if it does, even with the cheapest fire-forming method cost goes up to 78 cents a case.

Another is quality of brass. In general I reject about 10% of Remington cases for all but offhand practice. Nosler brass is top quality and already "prepped"--and headstamped. Which is why I use it in the .280 AI.

Hell, if we factor in cost why get something in 280AI?

I suggest a Handi-rifle in 30/30 and buy ammo at a mart. Since we are already in the semi-wildcat world, when has cost been an issue? Can't think of a single person I know that has only one rifle and said rifle is chambered for an AI.

At $3 a gallon for gas, $40K for a new truck, God knows for a house, I think an extra pound or two of powder and a few hundred bullets cheap entertainment.

Kinda funny how 'average Joes' can be lambasted for not enough shooting prowess by guides/writers (according to some of what I read) and then recommended to save a few bucks and shot Grits from their rifles.

Just for conversation. Of course ymmv...

Sawbuck, just a heads up. I think he said he used the SAME powder and bullet, not the same load.

Probably couldn't/shouldn't fit the AI load into an unformed case.

So I read it he is using the same bullet, and a little bit less of the same powder he intends to use in the AI load, to do his fireforming.

Or I could be wrong.

Sycamore

Yes, thankyou, I caught that.
I really can't like firing cereal out of my tube, or powders that escalate barrel temps.

Another option might be cast bullets. They can still be had economically and can be fired at decent pressures without necessarily getting too much zoom which might make a mess to clean.

No appreciable difference in accuracy in my .17 MachIV or Tac .20 while fire forming, so I like to go out and kill [bleep]. Save the Cream O' Wheat for the breakfast table and the Charmin for, well, you know....