Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only .375 H&H or .416 Rem?

I'm looking to have a M-70 built in one of these calibers. Purpose will be for Brown Bear in Alaska and Dangerous Game/Plains Game in Africa.

Rifle will be stocked in an Echols Legend, cerrakoted, NECG sights, a working rifle.

I'm torn between the two calibers, also briefly considered a .458 Lott after reading Weiland's book on Dangerous Game.

Opinions are appreciated, and for those who may be interested this will replace a Dakota Safari in .375 H&H that will be for sale shortly.

IM curious, why the idea of the 458 LOTT was abandoned?
personlly I have owned and used all three calibers and if you handload the 458 LOTTS certainly a good choice, for plains game I think the 375 gets the nod, but the 416 rem is a good compromise.
you might want too look at the 378 wby, has a flatter trajectory than any of the calibers you mentioned and with the better premium bullets its an excellent stopper, hard to beat a 300 grain bullet pushed to about 2900fps for stopping power

Wasn't real sure I needed the level of performance the Lott provides in Alaska. I'm still not sold on the .375H&H as a stopping rifle (yeah-I know, bullet placement - but schit happens). The .416 Remington does seem an ideal compromise, but there are those nasty pressure issues I'm wary of.

if it were me, .458 Lott would be my choice

That's Weiland's view as well.

I would stay withbthe classic .375 H&H. The shootability, more than adequate power level for the game you describe and the availability or ammunition worldwide, make it the practical choice.

One thing often left out of conversation when talking rifles for potentially dangerous game, is that you will have a guide to back you in such circumstances and I for one, would be extremely angry if a guide opened up after my shot for anything other than a charging animal.

As long as it is alive and I am paying the tab, it is my shot and the .375H&H has the track record and especially with modern bullets, is a wonderful option.



JW

I have owned all three, and also shot the over .40 Weatherbys. I am going to say that I agree with AGW here.

The 300 grain level is enough gun especially with currently available super-premium bullets, and the logistics of hunting with one world-wide are definitive.

I should note that I do intend to give the .400 H&H a whirl soon.

How come the Dakota is going down the road?

jim

I've decided to sell the Dakota to fund this project and a hunt. She's a lovely rifle stocked in an excellent piece of straight grained English. However, I've decided I want one synthetic stocked rifle as my "fighting rifle".

You might also think about a fast 375 i.e. , 375 Weatherby . I beleive Mr. Echols has built them before. I tnink the cartridge offers a bit of additional punch over the H&H while still being able to utilize H&H ammo in a pinch .

Saeed , over on Accurate Reloading , has racked up a tremendous score on buffalo using a wildcat 375 with ballistics similar to the Weatherby cartridge .

Another 100 or 150 fps out of an "improved" .375 is not going to make any practical difference in killing power or trajectory. It may kick just enough more to affect the shooter, however.

Why not go out and shoot rifles in all the prospective chamberings and see which one you can handle best? That is the really important thing. About anybody who can shoot the .300 Wnchester Magnum accurately can handle the .375 H&H with a little practice. Not as many can shoot the .416's well, and the .458 Lott is yet another step up.

The .375 Wby/Ruger or the .378 Wby are not options I'll consider for the reasons Mule Deer put forth, as well as a desire to keep things simple.

I've shot the .375 H&H, recoil is not an issue (aside from the headache afterwards!! Anyone else notice this?)

Like I said, I'm wondering which caliber is the best choice when everything "goes wrong", not which will do the job when all "goes right" (as we know any of them will).

I didn't get a headache from the .375 H&H in Africa, but my T-3 Lite in .300 Win Mag gives me a headache or stiff neck if I shoot it too much from the bench!

FWIW , I have found the difference to be more like 200 fps ( H&H to Weatherby ), with the same re-chambered M-70 barrel .

Weatherby factory ammo with the 300 gr Nosler kicks up an honest 2800 fps out of my rifle .

I have seen many opinions that the extra speed does not do anything for killing power ,yet I have also heard a couple of experienced hunters that have seen both cartridges used claim otherwise . If I recall right , even Boddington has had a few good words to say on behalf of the faster 375 s .


Strange as it may seem , I don't notice that the Weatherby loads belt you any harder than warmish H&H loads.....at any rate neither will kick as hard as a 416.....

The difference in case capacity between the .375 H&H and .375 Weatherby is about 12%, which means a potential increase in muzzle velocity at the same pressure, in the same length of barrel, of about 3%, or about 80 fps in an average load.

The .375 Weatherby does get more velocity, on average, because it is loaded hotter, both by the factory (Weatherby/Norma ammo is notorious for being right up there) and by handloaders. I believe the industry pressure standard is higher for the .375 Wby., though in the same rifle there would be no reason for it.

Perceived recoil, of course, if much affected by the rifle itself. But a 200 fps extra in a 9-pound rifle will result in an increase of at least 20% in recoil energy. If both rifles are sighted in at 200 yards with a typical 300-grain spitzer, the difference in point of impact at 300 yards will be about 1.5 inches. The difference in energy will be about 550 foot-pounds.

If a standard .375 H&H is already giving someone a recoil headache, then the .375 Weatherby will not help. In fact, probably the solution is a .375 H&H loaded down a little, to maybe 2600 fps with a good 270-grain bullet, which will kill very well but kick noticeably less.

Some people are more susceptible to recoil headache than others. Some research I have seen indicates that people prone to migraines are more likely to suffer from recoil. This may be true, as my wife has had bad problems with migraines in the past, and is also subject to headaches above a certain level of recoil.

My 375 H&H doesn't kick much at all, but my CZ Safari Classic is a heavy rifle, just over 11 lbs with the Mercury recoil reducer. I'm going up two notches this winter to 470 Capstick. To quote "Any Shot You Want": "A 500g .475 caliber bullet at 2400 fps is nothing to sneeze at!" I plan to hunt mule deer, elk and black bear with it while I'm saving up for my Africa hunt.

Regards,
Chuck

Would have to agree with that. 4 brothers, 2 of us inherited migraines from our mom and 2 of us didn't. All things being equal, a day at the range shooting the H&H, the 450/400, and whatnot and invariably 2 of us will be down the next morning with a killer headache while the other two are up and at 'em.

My only recourse is to stay the heck off the bench when shooting the [bleep] loudenboomers.....

NY: FWIW, I went through this same drill years back and came down on the side of the 375 H&H. Through chance and circumstance I now have three,and was shooting one yesterday.

I've played with blown-out 375's like the weatherby,actually an AI,and there is a noticeable increase in recoil IME over the H&H.The loads were a 275 gr bullet at over 2900 fps.The 416's I've fired are even more of the same and if a 375 is giving a headache, things will not get better with a bigger rifle.If you can HONESTLY handle the recoil,I guess bigger is better, but with the game you're hunting I do not think horsepower makes up for placement.By the way, I cannot tell the difference between a 375 H&H and a 375 Ruger at all...

Why not just get a synthetic stock for the Dakota 375 H&H,and put the nice wood in the closet for the bear hunt,then use the wood for Africa?

Not much difference between a 375 Bee and H&H 375, but a noticeable difference when you step up to the 378 Bee. Case capacity and velocities jump up, and so does recoil. I find the more modern brass for the 378 thicker and can be used more often.
But without doubt the 375 H&H is the grand daddy of them all. Most popular, more efficient when comparing powder to velocities generated. If I had to do it all over again, I should have kept my 375 HH and not traded it in on the 378. I was young and fearless but now I'm getting older and I like to think wiser.
Haven't had anything to do with 416, but then again never needed anything bigger then what I now use.

I've shot them all but none of them extensively so take it for what it's worth.


I find myself in agreement with John, it's hard for me to imagine anyone very serious about hunting big game being bothered much by the recoil from a .375 with a good stock and proper form.

the .416 is a bit of a step up, but a very doable proposition ime.

the .458 Lott a whole nuther kettle of fish, don't know whether that's just the line in the sand for me personally for recoil or poor stock design or what the deal is, but my bestest pard has one. He can keep it, I don't want it for my hunting apps.

course he shot a bear point blank in the chest with a .375 and they didn't recover the bear, so it may have had something to do with his decision.

still I'm glad he's got the Lott, love to watch him work up a load for it. glasses fly off his face, upsets his Workmate portable bench that he uses for a shooting bench, shells go flyin off it.

I like to watch a good azz kickin, even if it's my pard takin the thumpin. (grin) self induced at that

Too funny....grin.