Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics **OPTICS WHICH IS THE BEST?**

Hi Charlie. While your running tests, try testing for resistance to fogging. Just submerge the scope in warm water for a while. If you plan to hunt with the turret caps off, test it that way. Be warned Schmidt & Bender often fails this test. If you plan to hunt in cold areas, freeze the scope, than warm it to room temperature first. I won't comment on ruggedness. The african, and alaskan hunters have already done this. E

BLUB..BLUB..BLUB..BLUB.....<BR>(Another $chmidt Bender flailing in the rain, ) Hope you didn't pay a lot for that muffler!! Ha, ha!! Is it easier to be objective about these things if you are rich, or poor? Shouldn't matter, should it? Since I'm not rich, I'm thankful that Leupold makes scopes that are at least as dependable as any other, regardless of cost. Their Forever And Ever, Amen Warranty is unbeatable ... I pay for the scope once, period. Even if the rich folks could prove that the European scopes are, in scientific fact, the better hunting scopes, for whatever reason .... who gives a ratzass? The Leupolds serve many of us just fine, they don't cost a fortune, and holy crappola Batman, did you notice that they're made by an American company, right here in America? Frankly, I feel that we all give far too much air time to equipment, anyway. Do we really have to have that Nth Degree of technical advantage (at whatever the cost) to be a competent, effective, or ethical hunter? It sure seems suspicious to me why some people (Americans!) feel the need to crusade endlessly for expensive foreign equipment, while trashing respectable American goods that must compete with it in the marketplace. Maybe they just flaunt their money in order to try to make up for personal deficiencies, or lack of skills. Of course, that's just speculation. Have a nice day. <p>[This message has been edited by Loud Cloud (edited May 29, 2001).]

Charlie,<P>I am sure you have seen the post above mine that makes some mention of taking off the "caps". Well obviously that person isn't aware of the fact that not all S&B scopes have "caps". I have a S&B 4 to 16 X 50 PM scope with adjustable turrets for elevation and windage. You guessed it, no caps at all. It is waterproof as well, go figure <BR>Who removes the caps to go hunting on scopes that don't have target turrets? I sure don't. Maybe this person lost the caps, who knows.<P>As to fog proof. I don't know about you but I don't keep my scopes next to the heat register before going hunting in cold weather nor do I keep the scope in the freezer prior to hunting in warm weather. Maybe that poster does (kind of silly I think). <P>JJ Hack told the story where he took his Swarovski scope off his rilfe while in Africa a few weeks back and he stored it in the cooler (full of ice) and when he got it out of the cooler the next day it worked just fine. Imagine that, it rolled around in ice for a day and still worked <P>As to durabilty. If anybody believes that a one peice tube is weaker then a 3 peice tube,,,,well, they have some issues and they aren't possitive. Be carefull around such people. <P>Charlie, be carefull, there are a lot of skeptics around. Some people don't know because they never owned or used any of the "euro" scopes yet they are experts,,,,, sounds fishy to me. I base my facts on scopes I have used. If I have never used a scope obviously I can't comment on them. Others seem to be able to do that,,,,somehow.<P>I am sure you will hear how EXPENSIVE those "euro" scopes are, ,,,,again those that say that are only saying that to make themselves feel better about paying way to much for the lessor scope they purchased. Recently there has been a person advertising extremely low prices on S&B Scopes. Look in the Cabela's catalog for pricing on LPS scopes and compare pricing on S&B Scopes. (hint - the LPS cost more). Buy the LPS and get less for more <P>Don <P><P>------------------<BR>A 300 Win Mag beats a 30-06 every time

The only people I know who hunt with the turret caps off there rifle scopes are gun writers. :-) dave7mm

A couple of points about the leakage test I suggested above. This test simply tests for air leaks. It doesn't make your scope fog. The presumption is that if it leaks air, sooner, or later, it will fog. Second, all scopes, even Leopold scopes, will have individual examples that will fail this test. It's a simple way for one to see if your going to have a problem in that area with your scope. Lastly, some of us do hunt with our scope caps off because we may wish to change the elevation, or windage adjustments in the field. We don't want to waste time taking them off first. The point is that some scopes aren't made with their adjustments turrets sealed against leakage. Again, it would be nice to know what you have in the way of potential problems. E

Don't be fooled into believing that Leupold scopes are made in the USA, they are NOT. Oh sure the tubes are made here but the glass is made in Japan. Now, would you rather support Germany or Japan? <P>It's no secret that Shott glass company makes superior optical glass. Of course Leupold doesn't buy the glass they use from a superior glass company but rather they seem quite content with the inferior glass. Leupolds are way over priced for what little they give you. <P>Don <P>------------------<BR>A 300 Win Mag beats a 30-06 every time

G'day,It is a pity that Nightforce scopes are not lighter in weight as they have many great features and I really like mine for target work.I had a Schmidt and Bender 12x,great optics very similar to the 10x Zeiss I had.I looked through a 4-16 Schmidt and Bender a while ago excellent optics but but not better than a Nightforce in my opinion.I suppose it still comes down to personal preferance.We were testing scopes at 500 metres on a rifle range and you could clearly see 30 calibre bullet holes with my 12-42 Nightforce on 12x,but not with my 12x Leupold.One thing that is noticeable is that a Leupold scope is harder on your eye than European/Nightforce scopes.Especially noticeable when looking at a light back ground in sunny conditions.I have got of the track here as this was on hunting scopes but it all comes down to scope performance and the features you require when shooting.Don I am still going to check the eye releif of the Schmidt and Benders and will get back to you when I have.Regards from down under Charlie.<P><BR>My 30-378 Weatherby beats a 300 Winchester every time.

Charlie.<P>My 30-378 Weatherby beats a 300 Winchester every time.[/B][/QUOTE]<P>The 338 Lapua Mag beats the 30-378 Weatherby every time. <P>Interesting post. We need more just like it from guys like yourself that have "SEEN" the differences and less from some book somebody wrote about some tests done is some lab with borrowed equipment. If they had to borrow this equipment maybe they didn't know how to use it <P>Have a good one, Don <P><P>------------------<BR>A 300 Win Mag beats a 30-06 every time

Well, I suspect that Dick doesn't borrow his equipment and he thinks somewhat highly of Leupolds, see thread above, why don't you explain to him how much better your understanding of optics is?<P>I am not one to claim that Leupolds are superior in every model for every application, but for the money they are tough to beat. VxIIs are admittedly a little dated, and their price reflects that. Lucky for some, money is no object, but if that is the case, why not buy the suposed best--at 2x the money-Zeiss?<P>have a nice day CAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="2">Originally posted by If It Flies It Dies:<BR><B>Well, I suspect that Dick doesn't borrow his equipment and he thinks somewhat highly of Leupolds, see thread above, why don't you explain to him how much better your understanding of optics is?<P>I am not one to claim that Leupolds are superior in every model for every application, but for the money they are tough to beat. VxIIs are admittedly a little dated, and their price reflects that. Lucky for some, money is no object, but if that is the case, why not buy the suposed best--at 2x the money-Zeiss?<P>have a nice day CAT</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cat,<P>What do you expect DICK to say? He sells reticles to Leupold. You want him to actually admit that the Euro scopes are better? If he actually stayed with what he knows (reticles) I would have no problem with his negative posts at all. He is a SELF PROCLAIMED expert in optics. Does he or his company make scopes? short answer: No. His company converts scopes (power) and makes Reticles, that does not make him an expert on optics. Does he hunt? Does he use the scopes in the field? He has zero basis to make any suggestions as to scopes used in the field since he doesn't use them in the field. All his "blow hard" noise is for one reason and one reason only. He makes Reticles for Leupold so he is spewing all this BS about how great Leupolds are to protect his own interest. I see that as very biased and not at all objective. Then again, all the Leupold Lovers out there take his side of otics issues even if they have zero experience with any of the Euro scopes. Thats kind oof stupid, don't you think? <P>Price is a seperate issue then optics. If the only objective is price then buy whatever one can afford. Simple, don't you think? As you and others have seen not always are Leupolds less expensive then the Euro scopes. Leupolds are way over priced as far as I am concerned and others have said the same thing. I guess all of us are wrong all the time because the Leupold Lovers are always right. DUH. <P>Again, I base the info I share based soley on my own experiences, not on any lab test, not on any book and certainly not on a Guy who makes reticles for a optics company. I have personally owned 3 different Leupold scopes. I have since moved on to better optics, so that makes me a bad guy? People ask for personnal objective opinions based on personnal experiences, thats what I list on boards. If the Leupold Lovers don't agree with me, thats fine but when they start attacking me for what I have proved to be correct and right for ME, thats shows the lack of intelligence on their part, not mine. <P>If I made set screws and sold them to Leupold and they used them in the making of their scopes I would be an optics expert as well? Thats how silly that is <P>Don <P><BR>

I am not going to get in the middle of another man's discussion, but I will say this Premier Reticles has been in business for 50 years repairing and upgrading scopes.<BR>They currently sell reticles to private individuals around the world and convert the power of variable Leupold scopes upwards by an approximate factor of 2. His company handles more scopes INTERNALLY on a daily basis than you have ever picked up.<P>For you, who owns a total of 4 rifles, as I understand it, and x number of scopes to say that they know nothing about optics and you know the complete answer strikes me as beyond ludicrous.<P>To say that company knows nothing about optics is analagous to saying that a chief mechanic for a Nascar owner knows nothing about engines, after all he just works on them, right. WRONG.<P>I'm not going to quote another man without his permission, but an overseas poster wrote me and told me of his experience owning ALL of the brands of Euro scopes, guess what he uses. First two don't count. Yep, Leupold. Exclusively. Wonder why, just another dummy who doesn't understand, I suppose.<P>Unlike you, I am not going to sit here and make some wild claims about Leupold or any brand being the best for every use, or the best scope of all, but more people choose them than any other brand. And it isn't all advertising. <P>Funny, they sell a ton of scopes in Europe where there is almost no price advantage to Leupold. How is that possible? Guess all those people don't get it too. <P>Call me silly, but I still try to buy American if possible, and the last time I checked Leupolds are made here, and the Euros obviously are not. <BR>

Its getting harder and harder to define the difference in optical glass and coatings. I do like the actual numbers from the experts for light transmission in the Ziess optics. As the years go by, I have taken a greater appreciation of my failing eyesight and how much more clear things can be when you have good optical glass. Having a change of eyesight can confuse you into believing you cannot determine which optical device is best for the situation. Then you see how good the finest ground glass and multible coatings can bring back your sight better than ever before. <BR>While hunting, I want nothing but the best eyesight possible. If I do not have it, I do not shoot. Nothing else will do. This desire to shoot long distance accurately or make the cleanest bagging of game possible, has taken up much of my off time moments. Optics is a new world to me. There have been many changes since I first started shooting. I remember the first rifles scope I looked through in 1954, it was a Weaver 4 power. The older men talked reverently about it. Since I was young and had the eyes of an eagle, I did not want to be responsible for an expensive sight such as that. It also was not good for brush shooting when you are so close all you can see is brown fur. Now with the varible scopes you can see down to the ground at your feet. What ever your best scope is, it is better than anything your best eyesight can give you. You get up close and personel. When the rifle fires, you know exactly where you hit. <BR>I became enamored with a NXS Nightforce 5.5x22-56. It has some incredible etched reticles that give you almost instant ability to determine the distance to your target. The reticles are illminated and the scope has a side focus knob. 3 to 400 yards away, you can clearly see the pine cone structure through it. I have read the testominals about the higher powered Nightforce scopes and the clarity of there optics seems pretty incrediable. <BR>Despite all this, it is not the scope for everyone. It would not be practical to carry something so heavy over long distance if they could avoid it. Although you could use for hunting, you would not want to try to shoot it at running shots. The field of view is rather narrow. I will use it on a 300 caliber something with a crowned, squared and cut rifled barrel for long distance shooting at targets. It is so heavily constructed that it will withstand the jarring a 50 cal will give it. The best hunting scope is the Ziess, made in Germany, riflescope. Choose your own field of view and degree of power. You have almost instant access to what your trying to see clearly and see clearly you will! Its eye relief is long and safe for heavy rifles. <BR>If I have a thing about riflescopes, please forgive me as it means seeing and shooting to my best ability.

Just for .....and giggles I'll toss a in a vote for Swift scopes.

If it flies,<P>"For you, who owns a total of 4 rifles, as I understand it, and x number of scopes to say that they know nothing about optics and you know the complete answer strikes me as beyond ludicrous."<P>Your words, not mine. Don't get caught up in the lies. If your going to quote me at the very least, be accurate <P>You want an anology. Lets take the guy that runs a computer. Lets say yourself since you obviously have one. Does that make you an expert on the inner workings of said computer? I doubt it <P>Sure Dicky see's a lot of scopes but to say he is an expert is as you say "ludicrous".<BR>Just because he modifies them and add's different reticles does not make him any kind of expert. Lets remember he works on one make of scope only. Not ALL the various scopes in this thread. How can he be objective comparing various brands when he only works on one brand? Again, it is in his best interest to support Leupold scopes. Afterall thats how he makes his living. I wouldn't expect him to support other brands. <P>Don <P>P.S. A dump truck driver drives the truck, does that make him an expert on building dump trucks? I think not,,,,,see how silly your analogy was?

Don Knows:<P>"I already have a 7mm mag, 300 win mag and a 375 H&H Ackley Improved. I am looking to have a "big" bore built. You know for that monster squirrel hunt" posted by Don Knows 5/01<P>Is that accurate enough for you? I threw in your .22 Cheetah. I don't care if you have a 100 rifles and scopes, you will never have the knowledge of someone who works on them for a living everyday.<P>Quoted from post above:<P>"You want an anology. Lets take the guy that runs a computer. Lets say yourself since you obviously have one. Does that make you an expert on the inner workings of said computer? I doubt it" <P>"P.S. A dump truck driver drives the truck, does that make him an expert on building dump trucks? I think not,,,,,see how silly your analogy was?" End quoted text from Don Knows post above.<P>My "silly" analogy still stands untouched by the pitiful riposte above and you need to go back to school and study some logic. Using something, as in your 2 pitiful examples above, and as in your use of scopes, IS NOT the same as working on somthing, taking it apart, knowing how it works, and fixing it daily. See how silly you seem. You are entitled to your opinion, but when you post it as factual, that is a different matter. CAT <P>

Hey Rick close this thread will ya!

hey swift,<BR>whats wrong with this thread that you want it closed? is there a problem I should know about? just thought I would ask.<BR>86

If it flies,<P>"You are entitled to your opinion"<P>Your words, finally something we agree on <P>My opinion is that Dicky is not an optics expert and as you said I am entitled to my opinion. <P>Don <P>P.S. If Leupolds are such great scopes how is it that Cecil Tucker has converted so many Leupolds so bench rest shooters can be confident that the reticles won't float around?<P>

DonKnows,<P>Your continued lack of logic is becoming more obvious with each of your new posts.<P>About you calling me "Dicky". Doing that must make you feel like a big man. You hide behind your internet names that you chose, DonKnows and Shaky. These are names you gave yourself and accurately define the opinion you have of yourself. Calling me "Dicky" shows your complete lack of respect for anyone not agreeing with your ranting and raving. Why not give us your real name and e-mail address to prove you are a real man? I've never been ashamed to use my real name on any of these forums. Why don't you put up or shut up?<P>"My opinion is that Dicky is not an optics expert and as you said I am entitled to my opinion. <P>Don <P>PS If Leupolds are such great scopes how is it that Cecil Tucker has converted so many Leupolds so bench rest shooters can be confident that the reticles won't float around?"<P>If the Tucker conversion does what you say it does name us ONE shooter winning a major benchrest match using this conversion. You also might want to go to the HuntAmerica site and see some of the threads found under the LPS question.<P>Your charges that since we make reticles for Leupold make us biased simply because we have our interests to protect is more of your crap. We make reticles for Burris, Weaver, Simmons, Swarovski, S&B, Tasco, Pecar, Bushnell and at one time made them for Lyman, Redfield and Unertl before they went out of business. Using your logic we should be biased to these brands to shouldn't we? <P>I could go on and on with this pointing out your continued hate for the Leupold brand but by this time I think most us have your position figured out.<P>Dick <P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eremicus:<BR><B>When you say best, what qualitys are you refering to ? Brightness ? In tests done by the German organization DEVA, Zeiss, Leopold, and Swarovski placed 94.5%, 91.6%, and 91% in daylight, and 92.9%, 91.1%, and 87.7% respectively under twilight conditions. These results were for small scopes. The 1.25%-4X24 Zeiss, the 1.5-5X20 Leopold, and the 1.5-4.5X20 Swarovski. For the big scopes, the 2.5-10X48 Zeiss, the 3.5-10X50 Leopold, and the 3-12X56 Swarovski, the results were 94%/92% Zeiss, 94%/92% Leopold, and 91%/87% Swarovski. Mind you, these tests were done using a spektral photo meter, not somebody's opinion. I don't have any similar test results for binoculars, but Zeiss is generally accepted as the best. However, there are some very close, cheaper glasses. E </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is the kind of information I like to see. Do you have any figures for the Zeiss Conquest? (their less expensive made in USA model.)<P>Do you have any data on reliability?<P>Plinio<BR>