Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Training a hard headed soft natured friend

Tonight I finally discovered the secret. I've yet to decide where to post this .....either on the AC or here. But I've finally figured out what buttons to push to get any dog to do, provided he's not over the top with hedonism, what you want him to do ,,,,hard headed and soft natured dogs included. Long story but it all came to me tonight. More later.

You tease!

I'll summarize it for you...

A 2X4, about 4 feet long... ??

Realy, tell us more.

I'm all ears as well.

rb

I can't wait. It works on any dog? Hurry, it's raining here, I'm stuck in the house and need a chuckle. Better get a patent before you let the world know.

Battue

I double dog dare you to post it right here right now.

is it later yet??

SHOCK COLLAR...secret is out!

Saturday....inbetween painting the bathroom, working on a problem carburetor on my new ('87) Samurai, getting ready to fly down to San Fransico to pick up another one.

But guys, hang in there with me. I look forward to this but these high tech puters make dialogue slooooow. How nice it would really be to sit around the campfire and talk.

But I'll let you in on a bit of it. A shock collar is needed but that's the last of it.

Idahochukar2

No my friends,

The only way I can continue this treatise is to start with another title. I hope you'll join in. But remember from the start of this.....these are only my opinions and observations which you can, depending on your opinions, agree, learn, share, discount or do whatever. Don't forget this before you want to attack me with a disagreeance. I'm here because I love our 4 legged friends......not because I want to teach you a thing or two......

I'm all ears chukar I'm headed outside here in about 15mins to do a little table whoa work with my LM.

Marcel Proust I am not, not even close. But as I've said earlier, I'm here with an enlightened view. Not that I or any of us will ever be able to fully understand how a dog thinks, we can only surmise to getting close...but we will forever be in the dark or at least shade. I say this because this guy

lifted his leg on me and pissed on me when I started to do this bonding process that I'm going to expound on just last night. But don't stop here. Don't think I'm a guy who has no clue. I was subject to this. Was he just excited or what.....I'll hope that he was just excited as he's never done this before.

I've always been the Alpha but this just helps explain how we are always in the dark or in the shade. The French Brittany is by nature a soft dog and I assure you he knows who is boss.....so who wants to argue with the owner of a dog who lives with him? You want to tell me what was going through his mind? I hope not as you'll have little creditability with me.

He's not hard headed at all but I'll get to that later. Afterall, this was originally about hard headed soft dogs and what I've done will apply to those who are the most difficult to train.

Hunt Test judges have remarked how good a handle I have on him and professional trainers have asked if they could train him. His desire to please is astounding and it comes from several reasons. Last year he and a GSP were braced together when a chukar took off in the 'field'. The GSP took off chasing the bird, never to be back on the course again while this guy swung around after 200 yards and came back to my call. Why? Because of bonding. I can't stress this enough.

The biggest problem pro trainers have, without question is this bonding process. Complaints of "how can they compete with another dog who sleeps with their owner?"....well, I've heard it said so many times I can't begin to tell you. So we (non pros) want to dedicate the time to take advantage of it and take it into the ring....so to speak. AKC Hunt Tests are the place to go for the non pros and that's not to forget the NAFDA. Field Trials are w/o a doubt the reason we are able to continue the hunting instinct of bird dogs....bar none. But I'm not going there now.

But listen to this. We can do this bonding and many of us do but it is possible to go a few steps further! EASILY and in our own living room or back yard. I've done it and without going into the field !!! When I got this dog, my wife was inflicted with cancer....colon cancer. She was operated on in the fall of this dogs first year of life. Obviously I did no hunting to speak of. A year and a half later my wife was found to have pancreatic cancer and this put the dog (Buster) into second place. Nevertheless, Buster was in our house daily in the evening as IMO, all dogs belong in order to take advantage of this bonding process that is available but not alwanys taken advantage of by dog owners who have a different opinion of where a dog should belong.

So let me start out with an introduction to a video that teaches how to get a dog to respond to your wishes from the gitgo. This is instrumental. When I say to Buster 'sit' he does so in a flash with ears perked and happy. If I say to him, 'down', he lays down in a flash with ears perked and happy. No brow beating was involved. If I say 'hold it', he stops running or whatever and stands there with happiness. How did I do this? All in my living room and backyard. I taught him to 'Whoa' without a bird ever being planted because of.......Now get this......Positive training and bonding. How did I do this? Stay tuned.......

OK, I'm going to assume that you've already decided that your dog has enough good qualities to invest your time in. Big deal here as I never let this point out of my mind. More than once I've had dogs that just weren't worth the time and effort and sadly it sometimes takes a year to make this decision...maybe less.

"You catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar" is an old catch phrase that applies to soft natured dogs. When they also have this 'hard head' it really tries a guy's patience and you always have to keep this in mind. I can't stress this enough. If things aren't going the way you want them or expect them to go, just pack it up for another day. However, once you know the dog understands what you want and has shown he knows what you want and doesn't follow, then the time comes for what I like to call 'positive reinforcement'.

A long time ago I learned that never give a command unless you're in a position to enforce it when teaching a dog. That's why I think until a dog is fully trained he wears a dummy training collar. It becomes part of him and when he gets ticked by you, it's best to have him think he caused the nick....not you. I think because he's soft natured, you want everything you do with him to be positive. You don't want him to know that you caused it. Maybe you've seen how a dog reacts when you take him out into the field and put the collar on him. For the same reason, training collars are not allowed in any kind of competition except for 'locating collars' in any type of field trial.

Earlier I mentioned this dog training video I like so well. It's named "The Perfect Start". It's well worth the bucks and if you belong to a dog club you may even be able to get the club to buy it. I've watched it at our own meetings enough that it's embedded in my brain. It shows how to use a collar in a positive fashion when training a dog. But any how enough for this time. I have 'stuff' I have to do around here for the day.

Come on man, you've got a captive audience.....

C'mon now....that's not nice. Let's here the rest of the story!!

Sorry for the delay but I've been travelling out of state recently. Fortunately not work related as there is no more work for me. Just play.....and buying Samurais to wrench on AND turn a buck or two. The price of gas has made me tune into economical 4x4 rigs that can just about go anywhere. Of course the down side to these rigs is lack of space but then you can't have everything. They are big enough to carry two dogs, lunch, a few shotguns and shells.

But back to the real reason I'm sitting here inside on a beautiful Easter Sunday when I have a plate full of things to choose from to do.

Ok, so let's get back to the topic at hand. This, if you haven't discoverd already, is not going to be put in a few paragraphs as many of you have been hoping for. It simply can't be done. It is a big picture I'm endeavering to paint here that when put together in total will illustrate how to train these hard heads or really for that matter any dog in a positive fashion.

You, on the other hand, have to try to know how your dog thinks and reacts to events. Many are the same and many are different. You have to be astute and perceptive to how smart or dumb your dog is. And MOST IMPORTANTLY......HOW QUICKLY THEY CAN LEARN, REMEMBER, AND REACT TO EXPERIENCES OF THE PAST. Let me give you an example: (this shows how smart this one dog is and how good her nose is). I have squirrels hang out in the trees in the back yard and of course when the two FB I own see them, they bark like hell till the tree rat(s) leave.

Several weeks ago I shot a squirrel and put it in the 5 gallon dog waste can that has a plastic bag and a lid on it. It was full of crap, moldy, and smelly and I thought the dogs would never pick up the smell of the squirrel. WRONG !!! The female I mentioned above smelled it and turned the can over and took the dead squirrel out to run around with. Not to eat it .....just play with it. Now in the past I've let her retrieve a squirrel or two as she's been my house pet. Long story here but suffice it to say she's not had much hunting drive but she's my wife's companion dog that helped get her through this long period of her cancer health problems.

Basically this dog has been a wash out for hunting. This morning I dropped another squirrel out of the same tree and had both dogs in the kennel hollering for the whole neighborhood to hear. I took the dead squirrel out to the trash cans the dogs can't get to and let the dogs out to run around the yard and satisfy themselves that the squirrel wasn't around. I stood there watching the excitement of both dogs tearing around trying to find the dead squirrel they just watched me shoot, pick up and walk out the back yard with in a small plastic bag...as I've done many times before. They both saw this but didn't put it together with what you would think is 'reasoning'. So I ask you,"Is a dog capable of reasoning"?

The little female that found the squirrel in the dog crap can several weeks ago searched the yard to her satisfaction without success. Then she went over to the poop can and with her nose lifted the lid off to see if the squirrel was there. Now, how quickly she had remembered this single event several weeks ago.

So here is something you can do to learn more about the mental ability, the keenness of smell, and the ability to learn when it benefits the dog. If you keep in mind that your training should reflect what benefits the dog, you'll be surprised at what you see. Harsh treatment with a soft dog will get you going backwards really quickly.

Take your dog on a leash with a dog treat you know the dog loves and walk to a spot in the house or yard and plant it. Put the dog away for awhile and later take the dog out on a leash and bring him directly to the same spot and get the dog treat. Don't give any praise or talk to the dog whatsoever. Put the dog away for a few hours or wait till the next day and let the dog out and see what happens. BTW, you can plant another treat in the same spot just in case he doesn't run right to the spot. He'll eventually find it and you want to watch him all the time.

This event will tell you about how quickly a dog can learn when it benefits him and this is one of the aspects you want to be aware of when training him to do other things.

Reward, reward, reward, and no reward when he doesn't do what you want. Positive input will allow the dog to do what you want in a happy, enthuastic manner which will amaze you and others that watch what you've accomplished.

So much for that today. I'm wanting to go play with the Sammis (2) I now have. Later.......

Please refer to the above section that concerns a 'concise description of training'. I can't do it so as stated, I have to paint a picture with lots of colors and this is one of them:

FLAWLESS TRAINING TO "WHAO"......GUARANTEED (as I've seen it done and done it myself).

This comes from a Norweigan French Brittany breeder who had come to the USA specifically for a fews days of meeting with FB owners here and to talk about training methods he uses. So I can't take credit on the innovation.

Sitting in a darkened room I watched a video of him taking his dogs out into the field for the daily romp behind his kennel. The area was about 10 acres and he let out all his dogs who were at various levels of training. Wow, I'd never seen a pro trainer in this country turn loose all the dogs in his kennel at once. How in hell can a guy control that many dogs at the same time???

Imagine seeing this many bird dogs of the same breed running through 6-8 inches height grass, just tearing all over the place. JUST FANTASTIC TO WATCH !! It was a sight to behold and quite a common practice I was to learn. He walked out amoung the dogs saying absolutely nothing....purposedly. After 4-5 minutes of different dogs pooping he was sure there'd be no interruptions from Mother Nature. The whole field was alive with dogs....his own and others that he was training.

He blew his whistle and gave a single one word command like we do when stopping our dogs from moving even an ear once they go on point. "Whao" in Norwegian...... I can't tell you what it sounds like but I heard him yell and all (and I mean ALL) the dogs stopped running instantly. None of this "Screw you, I'll stop when I want to (a hard head) was to be seen. So basically all the dogs went on 'point' at the same time but not all did it to his satisfaction.

All the dogs stopped in the field and they all dropped down on their bellies. By dropping down the dogs are not so inclined to move when they go on point he explained. Holly Crap Never gave it a thought...stupid American's way of thinking ! Well, across the pond things are done differently and that includes how a dog is trained. Some of the dogs weren't completely down and he casually walked around to the dogs that were crouched close to the ground but still not down completely. With a touch of his finger to the dog's head he softly gave the same command again and the difficult ones were seen to obey completely.

How does a guy do this? He did it all in his home family room and in a small fenced in yard where he had complete control of the dogs. Without a bird or anything he was teaching his dogs to obey to his commands. No point in confusing the dog with a bird....that only makes the job harder. As you can see he taught his dogs to 'Whao', just like we'd teach a dog to 'Sit'. When the dog did what he/she was told, a food treat was given. All positive input. No putting the dog on a barrel and hanging him like we do if and when he moves....stressing the dog out. Why punish a dog to learn not to move? Think about it.

I've done all my basic training the same way because French Brittanys are naturally a soft dog. Harsh words are mostly all that's needed to correct a fault. With positive input soley in basic training the dog learns that this training period is fun. If the dog is a hard head he's learning to do what you want because it's fun for him and he remembers what gave him the good feelings. What you've done is tricked him to not be so much of an independant thinker, doing it the way he thought he wanted to do.

So of course we don't and can't have our dog's dropping down on point but we've taught him (hopefully) to stop and not move on command. BTW, this breeder was a bit confused with our 'whoa' command because to him it sounded like NO (a negative input) and confused the dog. I trained the next pup after that to stop on command with the word "Point".

This breeder's name is Carsten Hinnerup and last time I checked he had a web site over in Norway. I think in a minute I'll go and see if he's still got it.

Later

How quickly they learn. Due to a lack of wild birds in my part of OH, I started my dogs off with released birds. It wasn't much of a challenge for my FB's and the first year I shot 29 out of 30 birds, the 30th flushing wild shortly after being placed and flying to an area I couldn't hunt. The next year, in addition to the "hunt club," we did some put and take shooting on state land. Those hunts lasted between 10 and 20 minutes before getting the daily limit of 2 birds.

The next year we went to SD. The dogs had a nose for the pheasants, but no experience with birds that had survived in the wild and knew how to avoid predators and hunters. (We went Thanksgiving weekend.) We got lucky the first day. Day two was a learning day for the dogs. Those birds didn't play fair. They ran. They flushed out of range. They zigged and zagged through the CRP. Sunday we had better hunting conditions. Sat. had been unusually warm with temps in the high sixties, and low seventies. Sunday morning it was 31 degrees and the ice storm started about half an hour after we got in the field. The birds were hunkered down and we got some solid points and decent shooting before everything including the dogs iced over.

The next year the dogs hunted commpletely differently. They relocated as soon as scent started to fade. They didn't give me "the look" when I didn't shoot at hens. I think they learned that when we called hen it meant get back to work. The first year in SD it was like they were covering ground and slamming to a point at the first sign of scent. The second year you could see them get birdy and work an area. Now when my boy catches scent he starts a wider quartering search and stays about 15 yards ahead of me but going about 30 yards to each side. He is a bundle of boundless energy. The adrenaline is obvious but he's very much in control. You can see when he's in the zone. My oldest female has always been a quiet, patient, thorough, and close hunter who loves to go into the thickest stuff. She compliments the male and together I call them the A Team. Her pups being pups when they first went to SD only took one chase after a jackrabbit before they realized it was futile. Now they seem to get a charge out of rousting jacks but just stand there as if thinking, "Good, that stink is gone and now we can smell those pheasants a lot better."

It has been more fun to watch them mature as hunters than to shoot the birds. Part of their learning curve was the 16 hour drive. The first time I tried to get them out for a walk every 4 hours. By the time they got done sniffing all the scent in the exercise areas I'd lost a lot of travel time. Now I let them out once just after or before the Mighty Miss. This stop is at a rest area off the interstate. We get there after the main building is closed for the day. Now when I get a few miles from the river they can smell it and start to stretch getting ready to get out. Since I don't have to worry about traffic I can pull in and open the crates. They beeline to the exercise area, do their business and kennel on command. The stop takes about 10 minutes as I give them a few minutes to work the kinks out. A quick drink and we're ready to go.

I imagine they will be better next year. Since I'm retiring in June I'll have the full ten days to spend in SD before the weather gets too cold.

Jake, I had to laugh at the squirrel story. I keep my dogs on one side of the lot so I can have at least one yard with a good stand of grass. My neighbor decided that the adjoining yard would be where he would erect a squirrel feeder. Then he sometimes gets upset about the barking. He quit complaining when I started shooting the tree rats out of my trees to quiet the dogs. Somedays the poor little canines don't know if they are pointers or feists. They sure hate those squirrels and part of the reason they are in that yard is I have a good Carpathian Walnut tree that I'd never see a nut from if they didn't do double duty as guard dogs.

What can I say? This world we live in is something else. Have to let it go....difficult as that is.

BrittLover,

Interesting story and you bring out some good points, especially the learning curve we can observe as the dogs get experience. WRT travelling and wasting time waiting for the dogs to 'relieve themselves', from the git go of house training, I start out by giving a command when they go potty and bringing them to the same spot everytime on a leash. They soon learn what you want them to do. But again I speak to them with oral food treat rewards when they are very young in house training and elsewhere. You speak to a dog many ways and one important way is the mouth. Early on a simple task gets them on the right track of listening to you with a pleasent result. A pup's going to be a pup for the first 3 years of his life....hard as that is to imagine....it's true and a thing to keep in your mind with disipline and your behavior towards a pet.

Your behavior, physical (see below) and vocal has to be adjusted to the individual dog. I tend to think that MAYBE we've misnamed this certain type of dog that's "HARD HEADED". Perhaps a more accurate name would be "AN INDEPENDENT THINKER".
Why else would a dog that's perfectly mannered in some situations suddenly become a brat in the field or elsewhere? It's kind of like, "Yea, I've heard the whistle blow and it means come but screw that, this is fun doing what I like to do".

And having to do with your physical behavior verses vocal, if you say for example you rush over head on to a pup he can very easily see this as a confrontational movement on your part. Put this with a soft natured dog and it's easy to see the intimidation you're making. Ever watch a pride of African lions and see how mom can take care of a youngster with casual action.

If you keep yelling and/or blowing the whistle without response, you're only telling the dog he can do what he damn well wants to in certain situations. AH Hagh, an independent thinker!!! Think about it. Better yet to shut up and when you get the dog to do what he's suppose to have done, EVEN when he hasn't behaved himself, you're giving him positive input for finally getting it right. That's where this bonding role comes into play. I think people talk too much way too often when trying to get a handle on a dog when the dog's not on a leash. It just makes things harder.

Sure he told you to stick it but he'll hopefully come around. And if he doesn't it's time to take a few steps backward....even to the yard. But before going there I'd work him on a check cord with a training collar always on but not use the latter. (this training video "Perfect Start" handles a training collar differently and that's fine. Let him learn by experience what it's like to respond to your commands positively. If the bonding isn't working then it's time to rethink but you've got to give it time. Being consistent is a major key.

I must congradulate you with putting all the birds out. I keep anywhere from 6-15 or so pigeons that are homers in the backyard just for convience. They're kind of nice to have around flying in the neighborhood in groups.