Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Trying to decide on an all around caliber in a kimber montana....

I've lived most of my life in the west and have killed more game with the .308 than any other cartridge. The .270 is a close second.

Much is made of flat trajectories and a few more yards of MPBR, but I've never taken a shot over 200 yds where I didn't have plenty of time to compensate for bullet drop. As for terminal performance, I too have seen bull elk dropped in their tracks with a .25-06. I also can't think of a single instance where a shot I made with the .270 would have been beyond the range or killing ability of the .308 win. No magnum would have done any better.

With today's bullet selection, all cartridges are in a whole new league than they used to be, including the short ones. I've seen many a chrony'd .308 book hand load outperform average Joe's factory '06 ammo, sometimes by a significant margin. Funny thing is, those '06 factory loads seemed to kill game pretty dead out to 400 yds or so, at least in the hands of the guys I hung around with who shot them.

I also knew guys who shot .300 win and 7mm Rem Mags. Some of them could even hit stuff with them.



The same applies to most standard cartridges as well.

Having said that, my next center fire will be a SS Sako SM re-barreled to .350 Rem Mag or .35 WSM. I've just got a hankering for a .35 and like short actions.

Thumper35, you CAN reach advertised velocities with canister powder in a 338 Federal. The only factory load so far that even reached advertised velocities was the Fusion load (2630 FPS.) I chronoe'd the 210 Partition load and it came up quite a bit short (2470's IIRC) My reloads with Benchmark are into the 2600 FPS range with 200 grain Interlocks, but being a new caliber you will find max charges that vary 2-3 grains form book to book. I ended up working up to Hodgdons max load of both Benchmark and H4895 and I'm within 30 FPS of the Fusion load now. Thats in reformed 308 brass and slightly warmer than their listed max, but reformed brass has quite a bit more capacity. Case head expansion shows that I'm not even at a max load yet (as do all other conventional methods of pressure guesstimating.) But I'm happy with 2600 FPS, and see no need to push it harder. It's not going to be a 338-06 or 338 WM no matter how hard I try. At those speeds, I don't think premium bullets are needed, and I would venture an educated guess that a "conventional" cup and core bullet will open up quite nicely on critters.

Of course, if I wasn't a handloader I wouldn't own a 338 Federal. You'd go broke buying ammo. I'm a firm believer that a guy needs to shoot his hunting rifle at least 500 rounds a year, preferably from various field positions. Thats a lot of the reason I bought a Montana in 308. Shooting machine gun pulls in military brass loaded on a Dillon 550B costs about 13 cents a round (including my time.) You can't shoot a sporter any cheaper than that, or I'd own one

When I bought my T3 in 338 Fed, I was thinking black bears and elk. The 308 will handle everything else and would work ok on elk and bears should a target of opportunity present itself.

thanks for all of the great info, I appreciate everyone's input, i'll let u know how things turn out

Mike

Brad: None. Never will.....

Guys: Look...it isn't going to do any good to engage me in a "how many times have you used a 308 to hunt the west"-type conversation.I know what the thing does and what it doesn't. I have no doubt it kills stuff; I know it comes in short, light rifles, is terminally effective,and does not kick much. I also know it is slow, drops a great deal at long range,and just does not meet MY criteria for a general purpose, all-round, big game rifle. I really do not care how effective you think it is; it does not fit MY criteria.

If it fits yours, then use it...

But, one of these days, you will be confronted with a situation where the lack of a flat trajectory,and the lack of time to use the rangefinder,or the dotz, or whatever other high-tech magic it takes to knock off some very worthy elk, mule deer, or whatever across some canyon with a 308, are going to conspire against you,and the opportunity will be lost. Your choice,and use what you want. I simply find the higher velocity and flatter trajectory of other cartridges more worth-while when I venture west of the Mississippi.

As for being able to "hit with" and comfortably "handle" a 7 mag or 300 mag under the stress of a big game hunt, I've been doing so for over 30 years now, and fortunatly, things have not changed....yet.Anybody who has seen a 308 work on elk-sized game, and then seen such work with a 300 winchester or weatherby, understands exactly where I am coming from.

To repeat....and at the expense of getting flamed. I have no use for a 308 in my western hunting...if you wanna use it,be my guest.

That's just it Bob, you don't. You have a STRONG opinion based on no experience with the round apparently. That's all I'm pointing out.

We all have our quirks and prejudices formed by our life's experience. Lord knows I have mine. Some are thoroughly rational and some aren't. The trick is to know when they're irrational...

AND, in the grand scheme, none of it matters much anyhow.

Okay Brad, since we both live and hunt in Montana....

How many times have you been hunting with a guy that didn't even get a shot on a good sized elk or deer because his/hers 9 pound magnum was slung over their shoulder instead of in their hands???

I'm putting on my Nomex fire proof flight suit as we speak

You can tell a lot about how a guy hunts by his rifle sling. If your rifle is wearing a 1903 or Brownell's Latigo sling, then you know how to get tight into a loop and hit [bleep] out there a ways. If you've got one of those big cobra looking jobbers with padding, you're going to see a lot of critters running away from you. If you don't believe me, ask any outfitter around this part of the country.

Brad: I've seen the 308 used on plenty of game, back here.I have shot it to 600 yards on the range; I don't have to shoot a thing with it to understand( or know) how it works, because I know what happens when a 30 cal 150 started at 2800 fps, or a 180 started at 2600,is used on game.And I have seen (and shot) plenty of game with other cartridges in its' general power range.This is not rocket science

I have shot it enough at 300 and 400 yards to know that I am not happy with the round's trajectory. In other words, I know as much as I need to,and know that I don't want it for western hunting.

This notion that you have to have used a round on game yourself to understand its' capabilities is true only to a point; anyone with any experience with comparable rounds knows what a 308 will do on game.It is no better than its' ballistics indicate that it is. Besides, it is not just a question of killing power; I "know" a 30-30 will kill as well as a 308 at 50 yards. I also "know" that a 300 magnum is a lot better that either one past 300 yards, if a guy can handle it.

Predicating a cartidges' capability on some guy who misses an opportunity because his rifle is slung over his shoulder is stretching things a bit. This clearly does not have a thing to do with the round; rather it is due to operator error.I agree with Dan Adair; I have never seen a guy using a Cobra sling who knew how the hit with a sling; but these are different subjects.

I know full well what a 308 will do and won't do; which is why I still want no part of it...

Go about as far west as you can, and the .308 is about model perfect.

Oh... you mean MID-western hunting, like Wyoming, Montana, etc? I get it.

Heh heh.

.... and I ain't TOUCHING this one other than that. Oh no, not me. I avoid controversy. Yep.

-jeff

Bob, from what I can tell you mostly hunt private ranches and aren't a backpack/mountain hunter?

Where IS that popcorn, anyway...

:-)

-jeff

Easy big fella. That's lumping alot of great hunters into a group that's based on the sling they carry. Your out your damn mind if that's how you really feel. First 15 years I hunted I never even put a sling on my gun for fear I'd miss my chance. As got older I got tired of carrying my rifle in my hands for hours each hunt in the predawn hours and after dark.

I had a leather strap like your talking about for 2 seasons. Ditched it for the Butler Creek and now the "Claw" sure makes the long walk back to the truck when it's pitch black alot sweeter.

While still hunting I got it in my hands. Period. When I enter more wide open spaces and I've "scrolled" and am going to then start glassin the "Claw" keeps your rifle right where you want it. Not slippin and sliding around and ending up at your forearm swingin the rife around trying to keep it right right where you want it. Make's it much eaiser to glass while standing also! Just makes for a better day afeild. IMO

Now stop it there Jeff. Bob knows he's a friend whom I like and respect a LOT... just that I think his distaste for the 308 is a bit irrational

I think I know where Bob is coming from. I've hunted CA, MT, WY, ID, NV and UT over the years, mostly for muleys. There are some terrains where a short shot is 300yds and one hopes for a shot under 500yds. This is where a fast stepping magnum can be beneficial and choice of cartridge along with skill can mean success or not. And one reason I will always have at least one fast stepping magnum with a flatter trajectory in the stable. I still like the 308 class of rounds for timber hunting and backpack hunting but give me a 7RM or 300WM for the open country. And I hunt public land exclusively.

Some folks on here have hunted only one state or region with a few cartridges, then try to tout their experience as the final word or gospel on a subject such as this one. It gets old.........

MtnHtr

Stacey, your inability to grasp what's going on around you is astounding...

I like Bob too but Shhh! You're gonna wreck it!

Oh well. Damn popcorn is getting stale anyway.

Well... a little fuel for the fire... if something as simple as a reticle allows fairly straightforward hits out to 500 yards with a .308... what's the problem again?

-jeff

uugghh!!..............I quit....

Brad, I have never been truly "rational" my whole life

If I were selecting a Kimber Montana with the intent of making it my go-everywhere, do-most-everything rifle for use on everything from Oregon mule deer and elk to African plainsgame, plus mountain hunting in B.C. and AK, Coues deer hunting in Mexico, etc., etc., I'd choose the 300 WSM as my one and only choice.

Here's why: I think Kimber blew it big time when they designed the longer version for cartridges like the 30-06 and 300 Win. Mag. with a receiver that's long enough for the 375 H&H. That makes the entire rifle lopsided in a number of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, and unnecessarily so.

But Kimber really did get the package right with the Model 84 and the Model 8400 for cartridges like the 308 and the 300 WSM.

Now, between the 308 and the 300 WSM, for me the choice is very easy, since I started out hunting blacktails, mule deer and elk over 35 years ago with 30-06 loaded to 308 levels, then went to the 300 Win. Mag., which I have used extensively. Quite simply, and contrary to certain incomprehensible modern-day bullistic theories, the 300 will do all that the 308 will do, plus a great deal that it won't do. It not only shoots flatter, but it hits harder at all distances and it just-plain clobbers the bigger animals with more authority.

So for me it's no contest. If I wanted a Kimber for all-around use, I'd go with the Montana 8400 in 300 WSM, and I'd still own a rifle that's nice and light and easy to carry up the mountain......

AD

Allen, for me, living here in the West I'd do (and have done, and will do again) exactly what you say... I'd go with the 300 WSM Montana. It does hit with more authority and is only about a pound heavier. Also agree Kimber missed the boat on the LA. They REALLY should do an 84 LA for the 270/30-06. I'd not own an 06 based cartridge in the 8400.

My issue here is the guy lives in Florida and hunts the tiny deer down there with the "possibility" , maybe, of someday coming out West. THAT was the point of this post. In that case my recommendation, is the 308. Not because the 308 is more versatile than the 300 WSM, it isn't. Just that it strikes me a rifle should be purchased with actual hunting in mind, not possible hunting in mind... that was my only point, ever, in defending the 308. It's a lot more capable than folks that have little or no experience with it think.

But then, according to some, my POV is the gospel

Jeff, if you think the 308win is hot stuff with a LR reticle then you ought to try my 300WM using the same reticle. It will leave the 308win in the dust. And don't take my post as the gospel, try it yourself sometime.

MtnHtr