Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire It is not just cops

Matthias,

I ask you. What would happen if you reasonably believed your neighbor was in desperate need of your help because he was being held by an intruder who was going to kill him? There is no time to call the cops. Based on this reasonable belief you busted down his door to find a masked man confronting you with a gun, who you shoot an kill. Soon however, you discover that your belief while apparently reasonable at the time, was mistaken. The man in the mask was your neighbor's teenage sun who was preparing to go to a costume party. What would happen to you? I think you know what would happen to you. Why is it fair or justice that you go to jail for it, but if a cop did it, he gets a paid suspension from duty. Farfetched you say? Remember the cop who shot the actor who had a fake gun at a costume party while there to investigate a noise complaint. Is he in jail? No, why not?

I am saying that the police and our attitudes need to change. We need to consider that all "suspects" are humans and entitled to basic human dignity. Giving them this respect, may on rare occasion, place the LEO in a situation of increased risk. Yet, it is a risk he chose when he chose his profession and it is one he owes to the society he purpports to serve.

As to the old lady mistakenly killed on the drug warrant. Your thinking is too narrow. Go back up the chain a bit and ask,"Why is it even necessary to bust down the door"? Anyone must admit that busting down doors increases the risks that these kinds of things will happen. Therefore, I suggest that it only be done in the most extreme circumstances and as a last resort. Nowadays, its seems that it is done as matter of course. We should demand that our public servants be held accountable for all their mistakes. They have great responsibilities and powers.

As to your earlier post. I have no illusions about changing anything. I simply refuse to be fed a sh** sandwich and call it prime rib.

Joe,

The officer would not receive the same treatment as I would because I made a choice to go over to the neighbors home and get into the situation. The officer is called there to do his job. Is it fair to throw a paramedic in jail because he misdiagnosed you and you died because of his good intentions? Remember, he is trying to save you. I don't know the answer.
What is the cop supposed to do then? Wait for the friendly masked man to identify himself as a dress-up? I'd shoot.
The officer is doing his job. Unfortunate incidents happen. Like I said, this side of heaven ain't perfect.
I am trying to put myself into the situation you described. What if it was my son? I would be very upset, to say the least. I do not think I would hold the officer responsible, unless he gave me reason to do so. However, I'd like to know why no phone call or any other communication method had been attempted prior to going into a possible hostage situation. That would stink of incompentency.

I suspect that most police officers would view your words as a personal attack. I won't define your "Nazi" comparison as an example at "its highest extent" - I'll stick with "clueless".

The average Nazi was bred to hate - end of story.

As for elitism:

��as a prosecutor, you should know better��
�You would do well to remember��
�I know all about quotas��
�I know all about pressure��
�I know all about ambitious prosecutors��
�I am amazed at the level of discourse in this country.�
�It is impossible to have a logical discussion with someone.�

I must say - I�m humbled in your presence.

What you specified as a personal attack on me came no closer than �you Yankees�, and yet somehow you�re surprised when �you policemen� is taken personally. Are you my wife?

Alright Matthias,

How would you feel if your door was busted down and your son shot because they suspected you of being a tax evader. Or better yet, your nosy neighbor reported that she saw you smoking weed in your house through the window.

I am not making these scenarios up. They happen all the time. Cops bust down doors for suspicions of non-violent offenses and other things that could be taken care of in a less confrontational manner. At what point do we start to hold LEOs and their bosses accountable for situations that spiraled out of control because they broke down a door when a knock would have sufficed? My point is not to consider the mistake, but to consider the policy and the decisions that led to the mistake. I completely understand how an LEO can make a mistake when in a stressful situation. My complaint is that LEOs often seem to take non-stressful situations and make them more stressful. They leave a person with no dignity and in effect goad them into fighting when they probably could have talked them into doing anything they wanted. Why was it necessary for a Federal Agent to point an MP5 at Elian Gonzalez and the woman who was holding him? They probably escalated the situation. Does it not bother you to see images like that? I know mistakes happen, they are just all too common and it bothers me to see the "mistakes happen" attitude. Hell, we demand more from football coaches than we do from cops.

As for JGOG

First of all NAZIs where not bred to hate. Most of the people in Germany at the time were born before the Nazis came into power. Therefore, the Nazis could not have bred them to hate. Or do you maintain that Germans are somehow different and "inherently" more evil than Americans? True, the Hitler youth were fanatical, yet they were mostly too young to have great effect on anything. The Nazi regime only last 12 years. Not long enough to "breed" much of anything. You are kidding yourself if you think something comparable couldn't happen here.

As for personal attacks. You are a [email]dumba@@[/email] yankee and I despise you because you are one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> That is the only reason I need. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Joe....I am starting to wonder about this thread you started. Well, no. I am starting to wonder about you.

So these scenarios happen all the time, huh? Not in my community they don't. Of course, I should not be blind and ignore other, less fortunate regions of the country. I seriously doubt doors get kicked down and people shot for tax evasion and a joint ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME. First time you do it to a black person TV'd be all over it.

The Elian Gonzalez affair was wrong as can be. No argument from me here.

Federal government has too many powers. No argument here, either. I thought we were talking about LEOs (maybe on a local level?) and not federal agents with no local involvment.

I am not asking no football coach to risk his life for me. And you, sir, are a seriously-whacked-in-the-head-idiot if you think "we" expect more from them coaches than from LEOs. .
Gimme a break!
Do you let your opinions be known at Town Hall meetings, Letters to the Editor, letters to your congressman, etc? Do you vote? Did you take time to get familiar with each candidate, whether local or national?

The Nazis were "bred" to hate in the following manner: From 1914 on, the world was against them. WW1, Treaty Of Versailles, unspecified reparations payable to France, France being a dickhead about it, 1929, Backstabbing theory, etc....they were in economic ruins. Hitler gave them somebody to blame, some way to focus their anger against somebody. That's how. Plus, the Germans are very "pliable", they like to follow government. They aren't like you or other Americans, rebellious and all.

Sounds like you worked in a pretty crappy office. There are no quotas in my office. I make my own charging decisions. Are there decisions that I enforce? Yep. Does the fact I might do something differently make it right or wrong. No. It is my opinion.

However, hindsight is 20/20. Sure, after the fact we can say, "Why did you break the door in? You could have just knocked." Did they know that at the time? Maybe. Or maybe they were just being careful. There are too many laws in the country. It's a nanny society. But who's fault is that? What are you asking for? Do we blame an officer for enforcing the law that is on the books? Or do we blame the legislator who passed it in the first place? And what happens if that officer says he doesn't like law? He gets fired. Until the Supreme Court tells him that a law is unconstitutional, he does not have the right to pick and choose which law he enforces. If he doesn't like the laws, then let him quit and try to change them. I don't want LEO's picking and choosing which law they get to enforce.

And as a former prosecutor, you should know that painting all of law enforcement with the same brush does them a great disservice.

"As for personal attacks. You are a [email]dumba@@[/email] yankee and I despise you because you are one."



Does this mean you're giving up on "reasonable and logical"?



That's what I figured.

JOG: Pull up this guys posts. Check "Another citizens view on Law Enforcement". He's got something wrong with himself.

JLHeard

There are many issues about the laws and who makes them, etc.. This thread has already gone all over the place. But I'll address the issue of the cops just knocking. You said maybe they were just being careful. Well, my question is if they were being careful, who were they protecting, themselves or the suspects. Obviously, they were protecting themselves. In all honesty, I believe in the type of society in which we are supposed to be living, they should ere on the side of protecting the individual. You know that cops nowadays routinely use overwhelming force for many things. My point is they don't seem to be learning, or do they not care, or they care more about themselves. I think we use our police too much like the military and the military too much like the police. It sickens me to see local cops dressed in black BDUs, helmets, and flack jackets. Frankly, it is scary. I believe we need to curb the aggressive attitude. Even the terms we use like "war on drugs" and "war on crime" suggest too much aggressiveness. Suspects are "perps", "scumbags", etc.. Attitudes need to change. My cousin is a sheriff's deputy (I know, I still love him, even though I've heard some stories about him) in a very rural county. With some recent Federal grant money, they bought M16A2s and MP5s. Why? They carry them in their cars and they dress in BDUs. Why? In the 60s the model of responsible law enforcement was Andy Griffith who could talk someone into almost anything and always got his man. Today, Andy would carry an MP5 and pistol whip the criminals. And don't argue that things are more dangerous today. Maybe they are, but with all the so-called drug crimes and meth labs that exist in the county where my cousin works, they still average about 5 murders every two years (and half of those are domestic disputes).

Matthius

All I can say is watch the news and read the papers. You'll see stuff all the time. Remember the family in Tennessee who had the family pooch blown away because the father left his wallet on the car after getting gas. Going down the interstate cash was flying out of the wallet. A motorist called the police and told them about it and said "something wasn't right". The police stopped them, (thought they were armed robbers even though none had been reported in the area and it was a man woman and child) had them on the ground and shot the family pooch as it bounded out of the car with its tail wagging (despite the woman's pleas that it was a friendly dog). Would not a simple and careful stop with one officer approaching the car and questioning the occupants with another covering the scene with a shotgun probably have answered all questions and resulted in less trauma. But no, those guys were following their traing which was to take no chances and use maximum force. I could tell you about the woman in Minnesota who called the cops because her teenage son was threatening suicide, only to see the cops shoot him 5 times and kill him when he gestured at them with the steak knife he was holding. This stuff happens all the time. Recently in the town I live, two cops shot and killed a homeless man who was armed with a garden rake. He was shot at a distance of 15 feet. How was he going to hurt them with a garden rake at that distance?

Also, the Germans are no different than any other nationality. I don't see anyone being too rebellious here. I merely see people making excuses for the excesses of authority.

Joe,

You're viewing the past through rose-colored glasses. Andy Griffith was a TV star. Ask the black and hispanic communities what real police work was like in the '60s.

By any sensible measure, we have the kindest and best trained police force in American history. If you disagree, name the time you think it was better.

Joe,
We are indeed being divided have two camps: on one side are the the "Barney's", the wannabes, the kiss @$$e$, and those whose good nature won't let them believe what they see and hear, on the other hand there are people who the "Barney's" say need mental help.

To hear the "Barneys" tell it, it boils down to suck @$$ and take the abuse or see a psych.

Joe...I want to apologize. There is no need for me to be rude to you, even though you have some demented opinions (but then again, that is just my opinion).
Now, about that pooch: Yes, I do remember. I saw the video. I woulda felt threatened by that "pooch" as well. It may not have been the most perfect thing to do, but I think the coppers were well within their rights to do so.
And I agree with you that they should have been less agressive. But is this really all the cops fault? Somebody called it in you said. The dispatcher had to relay it. By the time it got to the cops ear, it was probably a full blown suspected armed robber he was trying to stop. At this point, could you blame them? I am not saying that's what happened, just trying to offer a reasonable explanation.
I agree that this kind of stuff (kid suicide) happens. There need to be serious consequences and continued training in the force.
Reading some of your other posts, it appears that you "despise" all cops. Why is that?
BTW, the Germans really are that way. Very pliable. Very much like sheep. Do as you tell them. Really.

JOG

I know Andy wasn't real, but he was the model. Today the model is some gun toting dude laying waste to everything in sight. Andy represented an idea that was ideal. We no longer make any pretense.

I'll bet the blacks and Hispanics around here wouldn't agree.

One last thing, I submit that much of the attitude about cops has to do with age. I am in my early thirties, white, pretty affluent for my age, good family life forever, professionaly educated, etc.. Most of my friends are as well. To a man, every single male friend of my age or younger has been arrested at least once. Mostly for public intox, ect. while in college. Of those that were arrested, seventy-five percent or so were roughed up in one way or another. Did we deserve it? Arguably, yes, we were drunken assh****. But we were white college kids, so no harm done. What if we had been black or so-called "white trash". Things might be different for some of us today. In any case, getting a close-up view of the power of the "man" has made us all despise cops. In my experience it is a generational thing. All of the kids who became cops were almost to a man, the guys that were picked on in school, the guys who were hazed by the football team or otherwise maladjusted. The one guy in my fraternity who carried a concealed weapon to class and once pulled it on another fraternity guy who had stolen one of our pictures is now a cop. These guys are the ones who are entrusted with keeping order in society. They were losers then, and I suspect they are losers now. An MP in the Army that I made sure got a General Order of Reprimand and was busted a rank for pulling his weapon on another soldier and his mom, is now a cop in a big city police department. He was a loose cannon in the Army, and he is probably a loose cannon now. Only a gutless commander and political correctness kept him from being court-martialed for his stunt.

Listen, the dumba*** yankee comment was mostly a joke, but I consider myself well adjusted. I make a very good living. I have had very little trouble with the police. I know some and they treat me well. One quality cop is in my Sunday school class. However, I read, I see what goes on, and I question. I view cops a little like I do rattlesnakes. I don't hate them, I don't go out of my way to come into contact with them, fear of them doesn't keep me out of the woods, but you can darn well bet I keep a look out for them and avoid them if at all possible. I also understand that they can bite you and sometimes they don't really care who they bite.

Cosatogjoe -

In 20 years I attended 12 funerals - some were colleagues, some were friends and one was my best friend and brother-in-law. It'd be a good time for you to do a post listing all the good things police have done over the years, the heroism under fire, the dying to save a brother officer or the laying down of his live to save a citizen.

I can tell you a case where an officer ran to save a fallen comrad and in the process took a fatal bullet. Had I gotten there a few minutes earlier maybe we could have "deprived some downtrodden citizens of their right to a trial."

I know there are excesses but in general I find the police haters to be unreasonably fearful of lawful authority without which we'd haved anarchy.

Joe, do you believe the Police are responding to a non-existent problem thru arming up?
I do agree that they are getting more and more sophisticated with their weaponry and look like military (the SWAT teams do- not the regulars). But why?

Deputy Norm and others

I know police do good things. However, I do not believe there would be anarchy without them. For most of the history of the world, there was no such thing as an organized police force. For the most part, we got along fine.

I grew up in the country. Police were not a presence in my life. If we needed a police officer, it was going to take him at least 30 minutes to get there. Yet, my house was never robbed, my mother or sister wasn't raped, my dad wasn't murdered. In short, I saw none of the anarchy that is promised by the the law and order at all costs advocates. Frankly, I never thought of cops one way or the other. But if I did, it was generally favorably.

As I grew older and left my sheltered littled world, I began to have more to do with cops. I began to see friends beaten when they were picked up for public intox or some other minor offense. I saw 22 (yes I counted) police cars outside of a bar area frequented by students writing tickets for public intox and jaywalking. The next morning, I read about 3 murders that had occured that night on the gang infested North Side of the city. This total was much above normal, I always wondered if some of those cops down hassling the kids were supposed to be on the North side of town that night. Murderers don't bring in much revenue for the city though. And to top it off, the cops all left before the bars closed and when they could have done a public service by getting drunks off the road.

During law school and during my time as a prosecutor in the Army, I saw how police reports for minor offences would invariably read exactly as the statute was written. I found it strange that every single suspect acted in the exact same manner on every arrest from many different officers.

In short, I have seen and I have paid attention. I have seen much more bad than good. I personally have never needed a cop for anything and I am capable of handling myself. I am not saying they don't do good things, but we need to step back as a country and rethink the criminal system.

All of you law and order types need to read "The Tyranny of Good Intentions".

Joe, the self policing idea works extremely well in small communities with involved citizens. Try that in urban areas and you will have chaos. Times and demographics have changed, old timer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"I'll bet the blacks and Hispanics around here wouldn't agree."

And I'll bet the blacks and Hispanics were not even allowed to live in your neighborhood during the '60s.

You're going to have to make up your mind at some point. First you "despise" everything about police officers, and then you "don't hate them". Keep it up and I'll need a scorecard.

It doesn't matter much to me what your experiences are - I have my own to go by. It took me all of two posts to rattle your cage after your plea for a civil debate. For the moment, I have you filed under �hothead�. I was going to file you under �Wealthy White Lawyer�, but some might misinterpret such a glaring generality. That would be most unfair.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Haggis,



Seeing that you trust the news so much and that you love to generalize so much I guess that maybe with the raising rate of teachers abusing children then teachers can't be trusted either. Lawdog