Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire It is not just cops

Forgive me if this seems out of place, but I've been gone for a couple days and I may have missed something here.

Haggis:



Oh � so you�re a cyberwarrior, and this is your chosen battleground. Wow.
You could do so much more than this, if you would focus on the real problem.





Okay, Haggis � you made me look.
Your paraphrasing of an old Chinese folk saying is interesting. Unfortunately � like many who use verses from the Bible to justify their attitudes, you seem to have used it out of social/historical context, IMO. I'd bet that it's something entirely different than truth that kept this around - just because a phrase refuses to die, doesn't make it true. Just becaues a philosopher said it doesn't make it true either. And for the record, there are several conflicting variations of this phrase floating around through history.

Then you change the original word �soldiers� to �enforcers�. You have substituted apples for oranges, in a most cynical way.

Such regurgitation of the �nail/soldiers� proverb would naturally be propagated by those who would think themselves �good men�, while branding soldiers (or cops) as the opposite. But they have missed the point.

Here�s another Chinese proverb: �civilians give the empire peace, and soldiers give it security�.
Seems to contradict your point, doesn�t it? Why would the same folks who cling to the �nails/soldiers� line also say this? That is�unless they actually respect and appreciate their soldiers.

Oh � and BTW � these proverbs are coming from a society that is comfortable with the term �empire�. One of the byproducts of that is a reduced need of �enforcers�, because the citizens are largely conditioned to obedience to authority (and authority is less inclined to accommodate the rights/desires of the citizenry).

Why on earth should we give any great weight to such proverbs (or any of their various modifications) in our (US) society?

I would prefer... �liberty requires eternal vigilance�.

This is the crux of our problem (yes, with abusive law enforcement). Without a righteous and vigilant society, liberty leads to apathy. Apathy leads to anarchy. Anarchy leads to fascism (nature abhors a vacuum). So where in this continuum do you think we are now? Who�s fault is it when we suffer from abusive laws and abusive enforcement?

The Founding Fathers warned us about this. We haven�t been listening. What gives us the right to blame a few (or even a lot of) bad cops?

-FreeMe

Now Haggis...you're lucky that Birdwatcher is here. Otherwise, I would now be inclined to launch into one of my anti-schoolteacher diatribes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

-FreeMe

How clever you are..., yes it does. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Go ahead and launch. If the only way to defend the Brotherhood of Barney's is to attack on a tangent, go get 'em big guy.

The problem is that you generalize. So FreeMe tries to hit back at you with generalizing your kind.
Don't generalize. It's wrong. What happens when you generalize?
African Americans are all poor criminals.
Hispanics are all illegal immigrants and wellfare suckers.
Cubans are all coke heads.
East Germans are all communists.

This kind of broad generalizing reveals a simple mind, incapable of some important distinctions. Don't fall into that trap.

This thread is ripe for the mining of history-twisting.



I'm afraid I'm gonna have a beef here with Mr Haggis, if he's the one who taught you world history, Joe. The BULK of human history can be characterized as either fascism or anarchy.



Joe - if you grew up in the US, perhaps (thanks to Haggis's coworkers) you were unaware that IT IS DIFFERENT here and now, than other places and/or times. In world social/historical perspective, the last few hundred years of western culture in general and US culture in particular have been the exception to the rule, on this issue.

BTW - which do you think comes first in our society - anarchy or fascism?



This all explains a lot. Seriously, Joe........thiiiiink. You need to look beyond the end of your nose.

-FreeMe

Soooo, tell me....why that handle? Have you had Haggis before? Or are you just intrigued by the seemingly disgusting nature of Scottish culinary customs?

Well, if I got roughed up by the Coppers for such minor "juvenile" offenses as public intoxication, etc. I'd be mad at'em too! Poor ole Joe probably tried fighting back a little too, being the hothead he is. What are them coppers thinking anyway, trying to arrest him for a little sucking on Grampa's cough syrup...
This is what's wrong with people. "Minor offense" like public intoxication. Nothing minor about it, in MHO. Shows a certain lack of self-control and lack of respect for yourself and others.

Haggis, IF I launched into such a diatribe, it would only be to demonstrate how ignorant your portrait of the law enforcement culture is. I wouldn't paint teachers all the same color - except to make a point. And I would be sure to make that distinction. The "blue blood is thicker.." remark and those that followed can equally apply to teachers. It can also apply to my coworkers. So what? Any profession that faces similar hardship together - in the face of a lack of understanding from the general public - will adopt these attitudes to a certain degree. It's part of the survival instinct.

You expect any group that is attacked so much from in front and behind, above and below, to be any different?

-FreeMe

FreeMe, are you trying that logic thingy again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it's a vice I can't seem to shake.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

-FreeMe

I�m being told not to generalize, and to use logic. Let�s look at logic and generalizations directed toward me:

1. GENERALIZATION:
Anyone who hates cops is hiding a crime.

LOGIC:
Why wouldn�t people love cops? They�re the good guys.

2. GENERALIZATION:
Anyone who hates cops is a psychopath, a sociopath, or needs to seek mental health help.

LOGIC:
Why wouldn�t people love cops? They�re the good guys.

3. GENERALIZATION:
Anyone who hates cops is Un-American.

LOGIC:
Why wouldn�t people love cops? They�re the good guys.

4. GENERALIZATION:
Anyone who hates cops is paranoid.

LOGIC:
Why wouldn�t people love cops? They�re the good guys.

If logic is being spewed in my direction, the following is its form:

�LOGIC, n. The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with
the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding. The
basic of logic is the syllogism, consisting of a major and a minor
premise and a conclusion -- thus:
_Major Premise_: Sixty men can do a piece of work sixty times as
quickly as one man.
_Minor Premise_: One man can dig a posthole in sixty seconds;
therefore --
_Conclusion_: Sixty men can dig a posthole in one second.
This may be called the syllogism arithmetical, in which, by
combining logic and mathematics, we obtain a double certainty and are
twice blessed.�

Haggis: First off, I was not the one to generalize. I am not sure who you were trying to quote, but it sure as hell wasn't me.
I'll be the first to admit that not every cop is a saint, you're not hiding a crime just because you don't like cops (Like my wife), etc.
You generalized, horribly so. When I asked you why you paint all of Law Enforcement with such a dark brush, you replied by stating that they stick together, and cover up for one another. Essentially, you were stating that every last one of them is bad and worthy of hate.
And I have a huge problem with that. That kind of broad generalization makes you seem kinda immature. Or just really upset with the coppers.

The quotes were what cops said themselves"

Well, there is certainly extremes on both sides. I do not worship any group of people. After all, they are people. But there is no reason to villify them, either.

Haggis, we all know that one can take logic and/or math and turn it into nonsense. I can do it even cheaper than you did......

2x2=4.
-2x-2=4
therefore, 2=-2.

So what? Now you accuse anyone who disagrees with you of using false logic? And you are the logic wizard? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Is there any chance at all that you might actually see and admit that there is a greater problem that we ALL are responsible for - and the "cop thing" is just a symptom?

-FreeMe

Nope. Besides, all teachers are that way. Every last one of em.

Matthias, I was careful to cite only the more egregious/proven examples, being well aware of the difference re: indictment vs conviction. In the local child molestation cases I cited, to the best of my knowledge the sentences were as quoted. Perhaps the likely fate of a former LEO sentenced to jail for child molestation had something to do with it. As to subsequent civil actions, I do not believe the offenders committed these offenses in connection to their duties.

To follow Haggis's, here's another truism: "The evil always believe the good to be stupid", to which the corollary might be "The good generally assume that other folks are decent folks like themselves" ...which assumption would probably especially apply to how most regular folks (including myself) regard Peace Officers.

I was browsing around on the web attempting to locate the specifics of a particularly notable recent case in which a local County Sheriff used $12,000 in seized drug funds to take a trip to Vegas or some such. One of his Deputies then informed the FBI. Unable to produce the missing funds, the Sheriff then attempted to raise the money by selling a load of seized marijuana to a drug dealer, who turned out to be an undercover FBI agent (I believe the Sheriff was sentenced to light jail term and is currently walking around free on some legal point of procedure).

Truly a comic case, and unbelievable except that it happened, and well documented in local newspapers and even "Texas Monthly" magazine. To the best of my knowledge it happened in Dimmit County but, short of subscribng to the local newspaper or "Texas Monthly" archives I couldn't find it on a web search.

Oh, its probably there, but its hidden under MULTIPLE accounts of LEO criminal offenses, I ran out of patience searching. This multitude of criminal offenses does not include a number of incidents of the innocent being wounded or killed, usually in SWAT-style drug interdictions.

"The point" that I have gotten out of these recent threads is that a few LEO's do bad things, but these bad things happen much more often than I would have thought (see the above corollary).

If even 1% of LEO's are bad, in my city that would mean 20 bad Patrolmen on the streets, and I think I could dig up incidents of 20 local Cops getting into trouble over the last few years. Including four who were recently nabbed in a FBI sting agreeing to escort a shipment of what they thought was cocaine while on duty, a Patrol Officer unable to account for ninety minutes spent in the company of a teenage runaway, and another recently charged with rape while ostensibly following up on a complaint.

I know that cases such as these understandably anger honest Cops more than anyone, and as I said it is not my intention to portray most Cops that way. The problem is bigger than I thought, and I'm gonna get off the topic.

It is alarming to reflect upon the fact that, given the information gathering facilites available to LEO's, the potential for a few bad Cops to do harm is greater than in years past.

What I also find alarming is the apparent thin line between order and chaos, and how much depends upon the integrity and courage of honest men (and women). Thus far the police in this country seem to be fairly effectively policed, either by their own or by federal agencies like the FBI and by the presence if a free, if irritatingly biased, press.

What scares me is an image of some possible time where the watchers are themselves corrupted (plausible down here close to the border, with so much illegal money around). If that ever happens we'll be just like Mexico.

Birdwatcher

Here's a couple of links that might be of some use in your search...

www.keepandbeararms.com

www.sierratimes.com/03/whackstack.php

Perhaps I can illustrate a point:
I have a nephew who is a policeman for a largess (60-70k) city. He is, in my opinion, a fine young man. Ex-marine, doesn't drink, good family life. Try's to do his job correctly. In this city, officers are expected to supply their own longarms. Most, of course, opt for an AR15 variant. My nephew has a lever action 30-30. Why? Two reasons according to him- one, the weapons are carried in the trunks of their vehicles. A rear end collison doesn't destroy a $1500 weapon. Second, and this is his words, the lever gun is "less intimidating"... Doesn't sound like some of the "black hooded, armed to to the teeth, Nazi types" does it?
So, to the crux of the matter: Would this fine young man bust down a door of a citizen and shoot to kill? You bet your life he would. Why? Because that's the WAY HE HAS BEEN TRAINED! It would not occur to him to question if it was the right thing or not!
So I think Mr Crosstoe has a point. There is a SYSTEM problem. I don't however, think it is the responsibility of the individual officer to question/change/ignore the "system". They have a job to do, and they are going to do it they way they have been trained.
So what's the answer? Other than the generic "we all have to do our job as citizens" I don't know. In the city mentioned above, there is an apartment complex locally known as "Crackville". When the officers get a call for that complex -which happens routinely- they go in armed with longguns, and NEVER singly. The idea is (and this is my nephew speaking) "to intimidate enough so trouble doesn't start". So while the call itself maybe a minor thing, it could escalate...
Personally, I have never run across a "bad cop". I'm sure that's just luck, and the fact I have very little dealings with law enforcement. I'm also sure there are "bad cops" out there. Two recent incidents in Houston, the shooting and killing of a couple of young (12-14) boys seems questionable. Although, the second one might have been an AD, the circumstances seem to be that the cops reacted THE WAY THEY HAD BEEN TRAINED, using overwhelming force, that led to a possible AD....