Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Gosh how bad does a .458 Win mag hurt?

My shoulder didn't mind all that much. My forehead was less impressed ... except I guess it was more impressed ... dented, even. By the scope. The rifle was a push-feed M70. Scope a Leupold 1-4X. I had a lot of fun shooting it with cast bullets. The very first 510 grain WW soft point got my undivided attention ... and maybe a teeny amount of blood.

A lot of the difference between kicks and doesn't kicks (??) is the stock fit and shooter's build. I, unfortunately, am built such that I crawl stocks badly. That, in turn, means optics meet my forehead badly. For anything bigger than about .375 H&H, I want irons, not glass. Even with a .375, I have to select my optics carefully and be very deliberate in my shooting technique or I'm going to get whacked, never been seriously cut, but I've been scuffed enough to let the red stuff seep out quite a few times.

I'd agree with what a lot of people said, so far as the shoulder taking a beating, the .458 was not as bad as my ol' mossburg 12 guage shooting a 3" slug nor even 3" 00 buck, maybe not as bad as some of the factory 1-7/8" shot loads I used to shoot. For me, if I needed a .458, I'd look real hard at a receiver sight or possibly a scout scope.

Each person is different ... YMMV.

Tom

The 50 year old .460 Weatherby is whatever you want it to be as it can be loaded to suit your own recoil tollerance. If you load it to top end .458 Winchester velocities, it doesn't even lift off the sand bags at the bench, because the rifle weight and stock length of pull is where it always should have been with a .45 caliber magnum.

Besides, the .460 is one of the most accurate cartridges ever designed as the new Barnes Manual will attest.

JW

Not to be too glib about it, but if you approach the .458 Win with trepidation, that's the wrong approach.

JW,

"Australian Shooter", eh... Actually, I was doing a net search on "The 458 Winchester Magnum" and it brought me to a site with your article. I still have that website marked as a "favorite".

I wrote for Australian Shooter for nearly 20 years and the magazine was called Australian Shooters Journal for the first 15 years or so. It is published by Sporting Shooters Assoc of Australia, which is the largest organization there and affiliated with the NRA here in the US.



JW

I just recently picked up a model 70 been rechambered to 458 lott. its the newer classic. anyway, I was a little worried about recoil, but I have fired a few factory 458 WM rounds (500 grn I believe), and it was nowhere near as intimidating as I had thought. the muzzle did rise a bit, but it was not too bad. Havnet worked up the courage to try a Lott round though.

It may be that I am in a shotgun only area for deer and shoot some pretty hard hitting 12 ga loads, so I might be used to them. They can be very brisk.

JW:

Thanks for the background info.


hikerbum: do you handload? If you do then, of course, you can create loads that are similar to you 12-gauge, and work up from there.

OH, c'mon... find some SEEDS! Load that bad boy to THE MAX... REAL men start from there and work UP!!




(JUST kidding re: starting loads.. DO not start at max)...

I recently bought a Remington Model 798 in 458 Win., and it is one nice rifle...Nicer than I thought it would be...Haven't shot it yet, still have to get some ammo.........Ken

JW,
You are SADLY missed! Your 'Big Three' article on the 378, 416 and 460Wbys was a standalone classic for a kid with a hankering for heavy pills and large calibres! Soon after I bought my second CF rifle ... a 458WinMag, then a 10.75x68, 45/70 a couple of 375H&H's and now with a 458AccRel and 470Capstick in the safe and a 500AccRel in the planning ... I blame you partially for my sore shoulder and big grins!
Cheers...
Con

I've found the above to be very true of the 458Lott as well. Working up loads the rifle 'all of a sudden', literally at 82gr of powder, really came alive off the bench! In a 10.5lb CZ this was noticeably more disconcerting than a 9lb Zastava 458WinMag and its 500gr Woodleigh at 2060fps. My 470Capstick does the same thing, really coming back hard as top-end loads are approached. Oddly ... a 458AccRel (shortened/opened 300RUM) is not as painful even with a 500gr at 2230fps and that rifle is still wearing its factory Ruger pad and a barrel that brings weight to 10.5lb.

Best thing I ever did with my 458WinMag was to load 350gr Hornadys to 2400fps and go hunting. Later and when used to the rifle, I started trying the 510gr loads. By that time it was noticeably more recoil, but not uncomfortably so. After you've mastered the 458WinMag etc ... the "horribly kicking" 8mmRemMags etc start to feel like pop guns.
Cheers...
Con

Thanks for the support Con.
I may do something for them again as I prefer to keep options open for the future. During my tennure there, I was basically setting my own goals and topics with little in the way of obstacles. Politics became a problem when I was offered writing roles with competitor magazines and the ultimate crunch came when they wanted me to hand over copyright to my work without future compensation.

I am replaceable as I remind myself everytime I drive past a cemetary and look at the rows of indespensible men. I tried to give something back. I hope I did.

Kind Regards,

John

John,
The support was earnt in my opinion. The old ASJ had a line-up of regular, column and contribution authors second to none. It's a sad magazine in my opinion now. Check out Guns & Game for contributions ... I think they're the No1 Australian magazine as far as the public is concerned and their support of articles on wildcats etc... seems second to none.
Cheers...
Con

"If you load it to top end .458 Winchester velocities, it doesn't even lift off the sand bags at the bench, because the rifle weight and stock length of pull is where it always should have been with a .45 caliber magnum."

I don't own either one, but I have fired some of them, and also a .375 H & H. If I wanted .458 ballistics, I would get a .458 Win.

Why go to the trouble and expense of a .460 Weatherby and run it at half throttle?

This might come off as being sarcastic, but it isn't meant to be. A better way to put it would be why get a .460 if you do not need that amount of energy?

The 458 win mag struggles to achieve original balistics, there are only a few powders that will do so, and the case simply isn't large enough to fit enough powder with a 500 gr bullet, especially if you want to use a copper bullet.

I don't know anyone that will get a car or truck that has to be run wot just to get going as it has just enough power for the task at hand. Most folks choose vehicles that have a reserve of power.

The 460W and other larger cases 45's can easily push any 500 gr bullet you want 2100 fps, and with lower pressures than the 458 win mag.

1234567,
Bigger case can always be loaded up, or run equivalent to a smaller case to save wear and tear. It sounds counter-productive but a 460Wby can be run like an insanely hot-loaded Lott and do it with ease. I've just started playing with a 458AccRel and mild loads achieve 2230fps with a 500gr and 2400fps with 400gr ... cases will last forever at these load levels. Consider the 416Rigby, another huge case that runs its 400gr at 30/30 pressure levels when there's close to another 300fps to be found if you go looking.
Cheers...
Con

I understand what you are saying. You can do that with any cartridge. Taking a different example, if you want a .30-30, why buy a .30-06 or .300 Mag. and load it down?

Comparing it to cars with a reserve of power is not the same thing.

If you are in a situation where you need the foot pounds of energy of a .460, then you are going to need it quickly and you are going to need all of it.

A person buys a .460 for the foot pounds it produces. Why change it into a cartridge with an energy level that is readily available in a lighter, cheaper, and less recoiling cartridge.

People try to get .458 mag ballistics from a .45-70, then load a .460 down to .45-70 and .458 levels. I guess I have always thought that you should use it for it's intended purpose and not try to make something else out of it.

A .460 gives a 500 grain bullet about 2600 FPS. A .458 Lott will give the same bullet about 2200-2300 FPS. If I thought I needed 2600 FPS with a 500 grain bullet, then, certainly, I would get a .460. If 2200-2300 FPS was adequate for my needs, I would go with a .458 Lott. If I thought 1900 to 2000 FPS would do, then my choice would be a .458 Win. If 1900 to 2000 was all I needed, I wouldn't buy a .460 and load it down.

I have a .300 RUM. If I wanted .30-06 ballistics, I would have got a .30-06.

Shooting a .460 with pip squeak loads is like using a Corvette to drive back and forth to your mail box.

I do know that the reason Weatherby started chambering their rifles in .458 Lott was to get a .45 caliber cartridge that would give 2200 to 2300 FPS. That was because there was a demand for a .45 cal 500 grain bullet at this velocity and energy level and the .460 is a very heavy rifle and the recoil is too much for most people. I guess Weatherby could have offered reduced loads for their .460, but they choose to use a cartridge that operates at it's full potential. Just as the .460 was designed to operate at it's full potential.

1to7,
Yep, understand where your coming from as well. Some people however are attracted to the use of reduced loads. I probably shoot a 20:1 ratio of reduced to fullpower loads in my 358Win as it makes for cheaper practice with pistol projectiles, likewise when I had a 375H&H I shot more reduced loads (shot to same point of impact) than fullpower loads. Weatherby's decision not to offer a reduced 460Wby loading may be a marketing issue as you dont mess with the biggest baddest 45cal! I've been surprised that Weatherby has never considered a 500Weatherby as it can be done reasonably easy on the MkV using the 460Wby brass and would produce a remarkably useful rifle ... but it wont be the biggest 50cal on the block so I dont think the desire is there. Whilst you shoot fullpower loads in the 300RUM, even Remington has seen a niche for power level ammunition. It's never been a popular strategy though as Norma used to run a 170gr 30/30 projectile at reduced velocity in the 30/06 but dropped the load after a few years.
Cheers...
Con

1234567,
Your questioning is reasonable and will be logical to many. There are a very few men on this earth than can teach me anything about a .460 Weatherby. I have hundreds of kills with it up to bison @ over a ton on the hoof and I continue to learn.

FYI, these are my persoanl loads, many of which will not be in any reloading manuals;

There is I am sure, something for every recoil tollerance. When the new Barnes manual is available, you will see that I wrote the paragraphs for the .460, and elswhere.

.460 Weatherby Magnum Page 1.

Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

300gn Hornady HP 100gn IMR 3031 2738 4995
106gn IMR 3031 2888 5557 Great on Pigs

350gn Speer FP 90gn AR 2206 2380 4403
100gn AR 2206 2629 5373
100gn AR 2208 2515 4917
105gn AR 2208 2685 5604
100gn IMR 4064 2525 4956
105gn IMR 4064 2685 5604
108.5gn IMR 4064 2730 5794
112gn IMR 4064 2860 6359 Mild

400gn Speer FP 40gn Blue Dot 1720 2628 Fed 215 Primer
57gn 2400 2080 3844 Fed 215 Primer
58gn 2400 2120 3993 Fed 215 Primer
100gn IMR 4064 2500 5553
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719

400gn Barnes X 110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719 Easy shooting big game load
110gn VARGET 2750 6719 6 feet penetration on big game.
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472
116gn AR 2208 2860 7267

400gn Woodleigh 110gn VARGET 2737 6655
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472

450gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2408 5795
115gn IMR 4350 2527 6382
117gn IMR 4350 2575 6627
119gn IMR 4350 2627 6897 Compressed load

500gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2433 6574
112gn IMR 4350 2483 6847 .456" Great load
115gn IMR 4350 2543 7182 Very heavily compressed

500gn Hornady RN 115gn IMR 4350 2500 6941 Maximum velocity for this bullet
120gn IMR 4350 2600 7507
122gn IMR 4350 2642 7752
104gn Rel 15 2398
108.5gn Rel 15 2512 7008
85gn IMR 4064 2028 4567
87gn IMR 4064 2100 4897
104gn AR 2208 2400 6397
115gn WIN 760 2450 6666 Very accurate .5 MOA for 3 shots
94gn AR 2206 2300 5875
115gn AR 2209 2500 6941 .5 MOA
Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

Hornady RN (Cont) 115gn Rel 19 2500 6941
115gn IMR 4831 2500 6941
75gn AR 2207 2000 4442

500gn Swift 122gn IMR 4350 2660 7858
A - Frame 123gn IMR 4350 2678 7964

550gn Woodleigh 110gn IMR 4350 2356 6769
115gn IMR 4350 2382 6931
117gn IMR 4350 2471 7459 Warm Load
117gn WIN 760 2383 6939
120gn WIN 760 2393
122gn WIN 760 2460 Warm Load
117gn AR 2209 2439
119gn AR 2209 2457
119gn IMR 4831 2464
121gn IMR 4831 2509 7690
121gn AR 2213 2422
123gn AR 2213 2459
115gn WMR 2138
118gn WMR 2162
120gn WMR 2179
122gn WMR 2243 6146

600gn Barnes RN 120gn AR 2213 2346
122gn AR 2213 2389
118gn IMR 4831 2392
120gn IMR 4831 2453 8019 Warm Load
114gn IMR 4350 2418
116gn IMR 4350 2460 8064

JW

AGW,
Though I'll never own a 460Wby ... seeing an article specifically devoted to it would be something I'd love to see!
Cheers...
Con