Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Question for Everyone

Very well said, in fact just last night I was sitting back thinking of how tired I am of BG 101 (ballistic gack) and that I should just hunt this fall with my Dad's old Pre70 /.06 and 150 or 180 Horns.

And to the gym is the best thing said on this thread as of yet!

Dober

Thanks Mark. I spent a long time making up my mind of what rifle I was going to buy. Matter of fact I remember asking you and Brad about an 06 and elk. And I wanted it to be 'the' rifle not 'a' rifle. Once the decision was made I dialed in my loads and haven't looked back.

I don't look down my nose at anyone who approaches it differently. I really don't. It just ain't my bag.

I made a list of a few odds and ends I needed to replace, equipment wise, a few weeks ago and have taken care of it. I have my loads from last year loaded into neat rows in my shooting box. I'm ready.

But saturday was what it is all about for me. We gave that old bear a good run and had a blast. I handled the hike in and out without any trouble at all. Even gave the teen and 20 somethings a little something to think about on the last uphill section. :p

It felt good. 'Having your homework done ahead of time' good. If I can manage to stay uninjured for the next few months, I'm gonna give a few of those old big bucks way back across the river and up the hill something to think about soon as well.

Will

We also need to remember that animals (like us) are individuals! Even two mature, 6x6 elk will react differently to the same rifle wound, just like two men will react differently to a punch in the face. Some men collapse and other men smile at you and ask for another.

Absolutely true and that is where experience comes into the equation.

Dober

What does it take top kill an elk?

I remember the cow which was lung shot ar 200 yds by my Dad about 43 years ago. He was carrying his Rem 760 30-06 w/ Win 180 gr silvertips. I was only about eight years old, but I remember the piles of foamy, frothy, pink, lung blood as if it were yesterday.

We followed that blood trail for over two miles. It finally dwindled away to nothing. We never did find that cow. I am sure she died somewhere. But she did not end up in our freezer that year.

Fast forward thirty years, and I had forgotten all about that lesson. I went elk hunting with my Win 70 30-06 and my favorite load of a 165 ballistic tip over 60.0 gr H4831 @ 2800 fps.

I dumped two rounds into the heart of a nice cow at two hundred yds. The bullets hit within two inches of each other. The cow did not even flinch.

She bled out and died within forty yds, but I swore I would never hunt elk again with less than 180gr premium bullets in the 06, or good 160's in my STW.

I shot my first elk with a 243 the same time my brother shot his with a 250 Savage. Both shots were right at 85 yards. Mine ran about 10 yards and died and Ray's took one step and stood there about 30 seconds and fell over. That was 1972 and I do not know what the load was but the bullets had to be Hornady or Sierra's as that was all the old man would buy.

I to went through the bigger is better craze and have came around full circle. All though I do like 338 RUM for long intended shooting but know its and my limits.

Truer words were never spoken.



And a big 10-4 on the heat. I am ready for fall also.

John: Just for the sake of discussion here,I'm assuming the whole 700 yard story is true and accurate....of course some of these stories are going to get embellished a bit.

Dan/Idare:Your posts brought something to mind.I had a chuckle yesterday as I bumped into a new member at the range,younger guy in his 30's who was off to the Yukon September 1 for a mixed bag hunt(moose, sheep,etc). He was clearly a knowledgeable guy,and was tricked out with a 300 RUM,4.5-14 30mm Leupold(nice scope!) with adjustable side objective, B&C reticle,etc. The RUM was spitting out 180 TSX and TBBC's at 3250 without a sweat.I looked at this stuff and dismally contemplated that the 30/06 and 2-7 scope I was shooting seemed,by comparison,about as effective as a muzzleloader.... . His outfitter had told him in no uncertain terms that he was to bring a 300 RUM,and NO BULLETS other than TSX or TBBC,and that 7 Rem Mags with 160 Nosler Partitions were forbidden,as they were an inadequate combo(!)For a sheep?

Then I thought about the fact that,to be competely proficient with his rifle combo I would just about have to burn out the barrel of the RUM,learning my way around that reticle,and the turrets.Not to mention how much fun it is flopping prone with an 8 lb 300 mag burning 98 gr. of powder....I decided my life will be simpler if I just grabbed a 270 or 7 mag with a smaller, simpler scope,and went hunting.One thing I've never worried about too much is whether I had enough gun...but maybe the game is tougher today than when Idare's friend killed that fabulous bull elk(?)

Bob,
Good post! The outfitter sounds a little too full of himself. Better advice would be to bring the rifle that he is most comfortable with. If it's a .300 RUM, OK, if not, that should be alright too. As long as he doesn't show up in the Yukon with a .25/35 with buckhorn sights.
John

John:The fellow shot the RUM really well;groups were very good and he can clearly manage it.I like that scope but it's just a bit oversized for my tastes.But hey, you and I both know,setting aside recoil considerations, there just is not anything much better for "all-round" than a big 30 flinging 180 gr bullets...unless it's flinging 200's

I never worry about whats adequate to do the job, I just take enough. When I go to the job site, I don't wonder if I can drive that pin in the ground with a 4 lb. or 8 lb. sledge hammer, I take the 16 or 20 lb. hammer then there is no questions.

Pat:Is the "20 pound hammer" a 378 Weatherby?

i just saw this thread and have to reply.
i haven't read all of it, page 2, is as far as i got.
i am the guy who shot the elk at 723 yards with the 300 rum.
where to start ?
first the gun. it has a 26" s.s. barrel and magnum contour, make is unimportant. accurized remmy action, 1 piece egw base with 8-40 screws, luppy prw rings holding a 3.5-10 luppy scope. all held together by a mcmillan 700 bdl swirly forest green with black and white marbeling stock.
the load is 96.0 grains of reloader 22 and at my altitude (about 6,000 feet a.s.l.), it goes accross my chrono with a 150 tsx just a bit better than 3,600 fps.
the range i belong to is less than 1 mile from my work, and is on the way i drive home, so that means i can shoot daily. my range has gongs out to 800 meters, and berms to 1k. i shoot from shooting sticks sitting down, from the bench and other positions.
i have a lecia lrf1200 laser and have actually shot at paper out to 1k and have the drp written down for all ranges.
now, the shot. first thing at dawns early light, elk up on the mountain in the OAK BRUSH, noone we have watched from our observation point has been able to work this mountain side effectively because of how thick it is, but when viewed from a distance you can see thru it and the openings where elk feed with no obstructions between you and the animals.
no wind, perfect calm morning, angle, about 30 degrees, cow elk standing broadside on the top of little knoll, partner ranges for me while i get set up, calls to me 723 to the pine tree she's standing in front of, i hold about 1 and a half elk widths, approx. 40 inches of drop, and touch the trigger, in under 7/8 of a second the 150 grain barnes tsx has covered the distance, entered the right side lung, traveled upward and exited low on the left side spine. cow was still alive when we arrived, due to only 1 lung being punctured, but the spine was shattered and cow elk was unable to move from the spot she fell at. i didn't think the bullet would have traveled as it did, my oversight, due to the angle and possibly how she was standing.


the year before same mountain side a fellow hunting partner shot his cow at 675 yards with a 300 wsm and 150 tsx's, blew right thru both lungs,clipping the spine, bullet unrecovered, cow fell and rolled, nasty expanded bullet hole at exit . 1 tag filled !
mosy likely bone fragments caused both lung hit and destroyed spine ? copper and bone fragments were evedent in bth places. it just shows the tsx expanded violently when it encountered the spine.

you guys can say what you want, there are 6 witness's to both years shots, 150 grain barnes tsx's penetrate, my first bull elk was taken 2005 in the same area, straight accross 1 mountain side to the other at 402 lasered yards and the 150 tsx out of a 300 wsm blew right thru both lungs of a 6x6, he ran 50 yards , did the death run down the mountain side, and rolled thru the oak brush some, and was dead.

i am going shooting right now, before work since it is so calm, i am trying new loads, so only 100 yard concrete bench testing at paper. a fn 308 and a remmy 30-06.

it can be done guys, practice is one key to this, knowing your gun is another, and after doing it, seeing the results of the shot, and what the bullet did. paper data is one thin, what really happens is another.

flame suit on, if ya need to beat me.... but i will be sitting at the same spot again this year, with my 300 rum pointing in that direction, but now with a luppy 6-18 with varmint reticle, it shoots 2 1/4 high at 100 yards, 1.5 inched high 330 yards, 1.75 inches low at 440 yards, 1.5 inch low at 550 yards, and 7 inches low at 770 yards. all groups are sub moa, and all recorded on paper, all while using the varmint hash marks, wind drift is another story to be discussed another day.

have a great day guys and gals, i'll tune in later.

BobinNH
I would be curious as to how many of that outfitters clients are able to shoot the 300 Ultra Magnum well in the field.
I would also be curious as to why that outfitters rifle requirements vary so much from most of the experienced hunters and writers that I am aware of, people like you, John Barsness, Phil Shoemaker, and on and on.

Fred

Royce: I don't know the answer to the question,since I'm not the outfitter.This is the report from the guy paying $20,000 for the hunt. I guess if we book the hunt, we'd find out what his view is...I'm as perplexed as you.I watched this fellow shoot groups from his 300 RUM for 3 hours;it appeared to me he could handle the rifle.

But if we read the post above from the fellow that shot the elk at 700+,I guess we see that, regardless what the ballistic dogma has been,a practiced rifleman using a sufficient caliber and good accurate bullet,can take game at somewhat extended ranges. From his description of the hits and wounding actions of the shots, it appears that some bullets expand at less than the 2000 fps,and seem to do sufficient damage to kill at extended range,which is what I wanted to know about.

So,it's the same old song; people that practice and get the most from their equipment can exceed what we're accustomed to seeing,or what our individual skill sets might be.The key seems to be,in addition to the right equipment,enough trigger time and burning a lot of rounds,as this fellow does.

Unless a guy makes the commitment in time,rounds expended, and equipment,don't try this at home!

I have not hunted elk before. I would like to some day, but I have not yet. That being said, I would not even think about taking a shot that long. As far as I am concerned, hunting is about getting close enough to the animal that you can be reasonably sure of killing it quickly. I know we have all had some misses. And some bad shots. But for me, shooting at an animal at that distance just isn't right. Some of you may be ultra good snipers, using the latest tank-killing round. And I am happy for you. But the chances of things going wrong at that range are too great for me to justify taking the shot.

I also don't really go for the magnum rounds. I collect old rifles, and have spent a lot of time talking with the oldtimers that used to hunt with them. I have also done a lot of research on what guns were used to take game over the last 120 years. What I have found is that most of the elk and deer shot over the past 100 years has been with things that the magnum crowd would sneer at today. .30-30, .30-06, .270, .300 Savage, .35 Remington, .250-3000, .30-40 Krag... the list goes on and on. And it seems that they had no trouble back then killing critters with whatever their regular hunting rifle was. Yes, you can kill an elk with a .300 UltraSuperShortUberHyperVelocity Super magnum out to umpteen hundred yards. But the question is why bother? You aren't bothering to get close, you are taking a really long shot that _might_ hit the animal, and you are punishing your ears and shoulder for no good reason.

-Mb

Simian:Well, I hunt mostly with a 270 and 7 mag,and as a long range shot,I'm chump change compared to many on this sight.And you're quite correct that the number of elk and other game taken with the 30-30, 30/06, and 270 likely dwarf the bigger magnums in shear number.

However, notice that as we moved progressively from the blackpowder cartridges,the 30-30 and 30/40 Krag,up to the 30/06,to the 300 H&H,300Weatherby,RUM etc., the natural progession has been toward higher velocity,better optics,more accurate rifles,bullets etc.And we have to acknowledge that there will be those progressive shooters who make the time and effort to master the newer technology and apply it in the field.At some point,some as yet unborn hunter will hold a 300 Weatherby and call it a "relic"....

Whether this is a good thing or not(as with any technological advance)is another subject,and when the technology becomes too efficient, we tend to "regulate" it,and limit its' application in the interest of the game,and the good of the sport.

You and I may not fully embrace long range shooting largely by choice,proclivity,philosophy on hunting,lack of ability or facilities to practice it,etc., but this does not mean that those who do a good clean job of it should be prohibited from pursuing it; SO LONG AS,they reach a level of proficiency that a 600 yard opportunity becomes a chip shot to them, the same as a 50 yard opportunity becomes a sure bet for you or me.

These type long-range shooters,knowlegeable and well-practiced, know equally well when the time has come to hold their fire, and when it's time to squeeze off.

As I said, I wouldn't take the shot. I didn't say that others with more skill shouldn't. But it just isn't my style of hunting. There are lots of people out there that could make that shot all day long. But there are also many, many more that can't. And quite a few that only _think_ they can. The end result of going with faster and faster bullets, and more advanced optics is many people who have no business taking long shots like that trying to do something that common sense argues against. They are over-confident, and don't bother to put in the range time like the guy who posted that took the shot did. It sounds like he goes out regularly, and knows what his rifle can do. But how often do you see idiot weekend warriors at the range practicing? Maybe once, right before deer season? 2 or 3 shots at 100 yards from a bench rest? How likely is it that that person is going to be able to hit something at 400+ yards? But because they have their cannon and a varminting scope slapped on it, they are more than willing to risk wounding or losing an animal to a bad shot. Rather than stalking closer, or (gasp, heaven forbid!) passing on an animal that is too far away. No, Goober, with his Ultraloudenboomer lets one rip. That is what I don't think is right. I don't really mind hunters using as much gun as they feel they need. It's their ears and their shoulder. What I do mind if slob-hunters who think that the gun makes them better than they really are.

-Mb (who hates wounding animals)

I'd stick to gongs for 700 yard shooting, but I am impressed that it was a first shot hit, anyway.


BTW, how long did it take to get to that wounded cow? How far away would she have been if you hadn't happened to spine her?

BTDT . . . . (sorta)

Fired a 150 grain factory corelokt 308 round out of a Savage 99, offhand at 275 yards with IRON SIGHTS.

One Wild Hog, DRT.

Blind Frickin' Luck. Wind drifted the bullet forward 8 inches into the brain stem while the pig was rooting. So I hit 8" forward, 3" lower than where I aimed.

I write off such things as random events.

As for the original question, I agree with JOhn barsness:

One hole + two lungs = Dead.

BMT