I've spent most of my life hunting the north east,the home of the "brush rifle";threading needles is a way of life back here.Sorry guys but I can't agree that 1/2" accuracy is "needed"for shooting between the brambles.It might make you feel more confident,but the hard fact of the matter is from field positions most mortals cannot hold in 1/2 MOA.I kinda get a kick out of these conversations about clinically threading bullets through the brambles.No shot at big game is that antiseptic.Does it happen? Sure, now and then...Does it take a 1/2minute sporter to do it? No.Under those circumstances the skill of the rifleman is more important than pure mechanical accuracy.
I like as much accuracy as I can get;but spending time obsessing that your rifle "only" shoots MOA is guaranteed to drive you nuts,and relegate a lot of really good sporters to the scrap heap.
If what you guys say is true,there would be a lot more dead professional hunters in Africa and Alaska from being unable to thread shots into brown bear and Cape Buffalo in the pucker brush.There are not many 1/2 MOA 375's and 458 Lotts out there,or hunters in the field who can shoot them that tight.
I'm a hunter, more than a shooter. 3 shots into 1 and 1/2 inches at 100 yards, and I'm good to go. If it shoots tighter, then I'm even happier. But, I don't sweat 3 shots into 1 and 1/2 inches at 100 yards, for big game.
We call hunting accuracy "minute of moose" and 1-1.5 at 100 is nice to place shots with precision, but faster shots from typical field positions do not allow the 1/2 inch to make a deifference. Randy
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+1 per usual Bob, I have shot more than a few deer past 75 (consistently) yards with guns that would barely put five in a pieplate at 100. Some would call that irresponsible, but hey, its all that was available and all we could legally use, and despite what is bantered about here, we made it work.
Granted, we never shot eyes out at that range, but out to a hundred yards you could hit the front half of a deer that makes them quit.
Deer hunters here could do serious damage with 30/30 levers based on what tools have been sucessfully used in the past.
Lately I've had pretty good luck with a handgun; even more predictable than the slugs of old with a bit of PRACTICE!!
I agree with the 3 shot 1 1/2 inch groups as a general standard for big game.
I have a couple of 2 inch guns I use a lot though. One is a 250-3000 that is a 1 1/2-2inch gun with 100 grainers but a sub one inch three shot grouper with 87 grainers.
Sometimes I hit the goals, other times no. Sometimes I hit them with target/practice loads but accept larger groups with my hunting ammo. Sometimes my hunting ammo is more accurate than my target/practice loads.
In any case, although I practice out to 600 yards on a regular basis, I�ve never taken an animal past 350 yards. Based on that experience, 3� at 100 yards would be adequate but not pleasing. 2� at 100 is more than adequate for any shot I�m likely to take in the field. Anything under 1-1/2� is more comfortable, anything under 1� with hunting ammo brings a big smile to my face.
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No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
I've killed a lot of deer with rifles that worked hard to get 1 1/2" groups, they don't require much better than that to drop a deer at reasonable distances. That said, I've got a M70 .270 Win. that will shoot under 3/4" most all the time with it's favorite load, and I'm not looking for a replacement.
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I like my big game hunting loads to do 1 1/2"groups or better. Actually I want the worst group to be no more than that. Uncalled fliers I don't want. BobinNH is right about threading shots at deer in heavy cover. If you're close enough to see an animal the brush is probably thin enough to get a bullet through it. The deer should also be close behind the brush, as there is a good chance the bullet will be deflected some. Trying to find a hole to thread a bullet through is not usually going to happen. John
There's more to hunt worthy accuracy than just hitting a volley ball sized area on a critter...at least where I hunt. Were we talking about wide open shots, a lot of bad accuracy will still get the job done.
Wonder how many hunter/shooters think about what's between them and the intended kill zone...and NEEDING to MISS that stuff before hitting the animal.
Many of my shots are threaded through trees, limbs and other junk...and were I shooting a crappy shootin' rifle, that little clear line of sight I'm gonna poke that bullet through might not be big enough to miss the little branches and twigs along the way.
So yeah, I pay attention to the "accuracy" of a hunting rifle. To be a thing hitter around here, it needs to be a group maker, and the guy pulling the trigger needs to know how to pull a trigger.....
Last year I had to thread a bullet through a very small break in the brush to take my Zebra Stallion. This is on my video where I talk about shooting from shooting sticks and practicing. Without a good scope, shooting sticks and an accurate rifle the shot could not have been made. On the same trip I had to shoot just the spine showing over a mound of dirt by a water hole of a Kudu Bull at 350 yards supported by a large tree. The previous year I shot my largest Impala going straight away from me at 225 yards. An Impalas kill zone is very small when facing straight away from you, especially at 225 yards form shooting sticks. Good accuracy from a rifle gives one confidence for such shots as well as making ones own shooter error, inevitable from shooting field positions, the only real consideration on the shot. For me, a rifle needs to be shooting into 3/4 of an inch and 1/2 is better. Both very doable with a good rifle and Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets.
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It might make you feel more confident,but the hard fact of the matter is from field positions most mortals cannot hold in 1/2 MOA.
Gotta love those guys that fall back on that excuse without fail. Kinda like saying "my car won't do 130 mph anyway so I'm gonna take 2 of the spark plugs out..."
Just Stupid Logic.....
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I kinda get a kick out of these conversations about clinically threading bullets through the brambles.No shot at big game is that antiseptic.Does it happen? Sure, now and then...Does it take a 1/2minute sporter to do it? No.Under those circumstances the skill of the rifleman is more important than pure mechanical accuracy.
I say they both work in conjunction and the marginal failure of either one breeds such things as "brushgun" lore. Why cheat yourself outta one or the other when they are both so easily obtained....
Originally Posted by BobinNH
If what you guys say is true,there would be a lot more dead professional hunters in Africa and Alaska from being unable to thread shots into brown bear and Cape Buffalo in the pucker brush.There are not many 1/2 MOA 375's and 458 Lotts out there,or hunters in the field who can shoot them that tight.
Fairly certain I wouldn't go huntin' in Africa for Cape Buffalo with my 85 grain TSX slingin' 6mm-08, nor BB's in Alaska. Deer huntin' here isn't a "keep shooting else they kill you" proposition either. Finesse and precision more often than not, trump horsepower.
+1 per usual Bob, I have shot more than a few deer past 75 (consistently) yards with guns that would barely put five in a pieplate at 100. Some would call that irresponsible, but hey, its all that was available and all we could legally use, and despite what is bantered about here, we made it work.
Granted, we never shot eyes out at that range, but out to a hundred yards you could hit the front half of a deer that makes them quit.
Deer hunters here could do serious damage with 30/30 levers based on what tools have been sucessfully used in the past.
Some of us work way beyond your self imposed 75 to 100 yard max, under the same conditions, because we have gear accurate enough to thread the needle and go that far...
The range is not necessarily self-imposed. We're talking Foster and Brenneke slugs and shotguns here (only LEGAL repeating arms for deer here, besides hanguns). If you're consistently better than that with that combo past 100 yds., I'd say your being pretty silly. Today, the sabots have helped somewhat, but I'd still take a scoped 30/30. And yes, I've shot deer way past 100 yds. more than once with rifles (out of state).
My point is that there are more accurate rifles than shooters out there and the majority of hunting does not consist of 500 yd. shots over daypacks, benches or shooting sticks (there is nothing wrong with those who do it, however).
Sometimes even the most mediocre tools work surprisingly well.
Sometimes the animals even move.
People are a little too obsessed over their guns when they should be worried about their shooting and hunting skills.
My friends and myself have shot some pretty nice deer here without 1/4 min. or even 2" guns, that's all I'm saying. If you NEED a 1/4min. gun, by all means go for it. I'd like to use one here, but legally it just isn't possible (some MZ's will do 1"), so we have made due over the years. Magically there are full freezers.
Oh yeah, we have an antlerless rifle season only for certain areas. The bowhunting lobby in this state would never allow a rifle season because they consider slug hunting "easy" compared to bowhunting; gun hunters are just population control to them and our DNR.
Since Bob is using "stupid logic", please shoot your 1/4 min. gun offhand and one that is a little more maginal, like 1 1/2er. Shoot two targets off your hind legs, no rest, and post the targets for us. Shoot them at 50, 100, a mile or whatever. I am interested in your thesis.
Or take both guns out rabbit hunting, just for giggles Don't forget to eat what's left
Last edited by HawkI; 08/09/08. Reason: off a bench
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