Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How was the 24HR camfire hunt in ZIM for PAC ele & Buffalo

One thing I noticed is Schultz says he would consider some "compensation" but won't because he's mad at them now. I say BS. If they are entitled to compensation they should get it and denying it for any reason is just weaseling out of it.

Other than that, in hunting diputes like this, there are at least three sides to every story.

Where Schultz is concerned there can be more than 3 sides to a story, he is quite capable of having more than 1 side himself depending on how it suits him. Judge for yourselves which version which version of Schultz' "truth", if any, you care to believe.


----- Original Message -----
From: timbeehushmail.com
Date: Friday, August 8, 2008 3:49 am
Subject: Hunt

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> Hi Mike
>
> I trust you got back home ok, I believe there were a few issues on
> your hunt you were not happy about, I'm surprised you never said
> anything before you left.
>
> Firstly the area you were in only had no quota for non-trophy
> elephant, which unfortunately we did not know about. The reason we
> had to go to that area was due to the fact that Mark Claiborne did
> not send forward your deposits until just before your hunt, I
> remember Dan e-mailing you regarding this, we even threatened to
> cancel all of Mark's hunts unless we received deposits. Had we
> received your deposits earlier on in the year we could have secured
> animals for you elsewhere. We had originally booked you down to go
> to the Omay (where we do most of our hunting) which is one of the
> best areas in Zimbabwe and received an e-mail from Mark Claiborne
> requesting that his clients are not sent there due to the fact that
> one of his client's not shooting a buffalo in the 7 days that he
> was up there, therefore the change was a result of that as it had
> to be a last minute decision to send you to the Matetsi area. Only
> 2 clients out of 10 who have been sent to the Omay have not taken
> their buffalo.
>
> When we did find out we made some enquiries for non-trophy elephant
> and were offered 5 by our National Parks, as you know. National
> Parks issued us with the permit for these and will receive their
> payment in trade ie equipment that the Parks & Wildlife Authority
> need desperately, like landrover parts and fuel for example. This
> is happening all over the country as it is a culling management
> program and there is nothing illegal as far as I am aware, we do
> not conduct business illegally. I am very surpised that Don Heath
> does not know about the culling management program.
>
> I had made arrangements with the camp prior to your arrival, the
> camp manager and I did have a fall out, because of his attitude and
> not because he kicked us out, I am awaiting an apology letter which
> I will forward on to you once received. I have received a verbal
> apology but am awaiting the written one.
>
> As for Dale Strong he was not sent to another area, he left of his
> own accord, his PH then took it upon himself to take Dale where he
> thought he could hunt, we have not hunted on the property he took
> Dale to hunt on for some time due to a small dispute over some
> animals which does happen occassionally. Dale's ph did not liaise
> or communicate with us much at all and has a lot to answer for.
>
> I am sorry that you were disappointed with your hunt and wish that
> you had discussed this with us and we could have ironed a few
> things out.
>
> Yours in hunting
>
> Tim Schultz




Tim,
It would be an enormous relief to believe the permits are legal, and as long as I'm not going to be charged with anything I'm probably happier leaving that part alone. The permit copy will be appreciated though.


You have done a fair job of outlining our complaints, area change, and lack of permits. We all discussed these issues with our respective PHs daily and have already received the same answers. The trouble is the answers change nothing, we were still in the same area with no quota until in the last day in my case. How would you react if you booked and paid for in advance a North American Elk hunt, were sent to a different area without any notice and didn't have a licence until the last day? At that point no amount of reasons could salvage the hunt. There are some kinds of "broken" that can't be fixed.

The camp manager Shane? Sean? (who I agree is very much an [bleep]) took great delight in telling us nightly that he was going to kick us out soon. This started before you got there, so it was no enormous surprise when we were left packing our bags in the middle of the night. The camp manager also claims that he had no knowledge that we were coming at all. Someone is not telling the truth.

The area may have only been missing permits for non-trophy elephant, but since that was what the 3 hunts were booked for, it's a deal stopper at that point. How hard is it to pick up a phone to find out? It must be somewhat easier than the method we used, which was to fly halfway around the world to learn the same thing.

Dale Strong did ask to be moved, not that he could be blamed for that. He also insisted that all calls made by his PH be made on speaker phone, so has heard plenty on both sides of those conversations.

What goes on between you and Mark is your business. What transpires between you and camp managers is your business. Securing quota for the hunts is your business. Not letting your business become your client's problem is your business. Why should we be happy? Why would you think we would be?

I don't remember telling anyone that we were pleased with the hunt, indeed the opposite was true. Whether a few animals died or not, we didn't get the hunt we were sold. My only recourse may be to help prevent others from making the same mistake. Once everyone has had their say, I'll post the hunt report that 24 hour campfire and Accurate Reloading are expecting. I doubt very much that anyone will be impressed, but needless to say I've been wrong before.
Mike Kanak

I sometimes wonder what it is in human nature that so often makes us seek approval from people we don't know.........

All that'll be achieved by airing it all in public will be to cause arguments on the forum and get EVERYONE involved a bad reputation.

Surely this is even more reason this needs to be sorted out privately between the parties involved.

As this hunt was solicited to me and others on this web site I do have an interest on the outcome. It is clear that clients were not happy with aspects of this years and last years hunt. If this hunt was not brought to the attention of the viewers of this site in the form of a solicitation I would not have the same interest. Since this has been an ongoing event the last two years I would appreciate feedback from the parties that went as referances. That is a problem with selling these kind of hunts is that the operators and agents take alot of chances if things do not go well. If it worked then you hit a home run.
We each make our own minds up.
What I read into this is alot of excuses. Too many for what is spent on a safari in regards to time and money.
I have not seen anything that would give me hope that I would like to take a chance on one of these hunts. It does apear that too much is left to chance trying to make these hunts work. With all the changes in Zim due to the political issues I feel you must work very hard choosing operators that have established areas that they are able to have ongoing stable operations. Let us face it. The real meat of this situation is that the safari operator "tried to make do" with a hunt.
If I book a hunt accross the world the operator and booking agent better understand that I do not want to experience a "try to make do" hunt. For me I want to be told that all is not well so I can decide whether to give them my money and take a chance.
I think that some times the American (or Canadian)hunter is seen as having too much time and money. It is not the case with all of us. I know these safari operators are trying to hang on in a country that is trying to milk its legendary past for all it is worth. They need hunters. Hunters need good and professionaly run hunts. I am sorry but this hunt did not work. I would not take one of these hunts for any cost.

Also the Brit F jokes are getting too old for me. Nothing personal but could we let them go.

What will be achieved is simple. People will be warned of potential problems with a certain outfitter. They may also be able to take steps to protect themselves, such as the escrow account that someone suggested. In addition there is the little matter of someone calling me a liar, a situation that I find intolerable.

I'm not suggesting the outcome should be kept secret, I'm just suggesting that trial by internet never works for any of the parties involved because the jury that's created by trial by internet weren't there, don't know what happened, have often only heard one side of the story and often don't know a great deal about the African hunting industry (to say the least). - Far better to sort it out offline and then announce the result.

The other factor is the libel laws I mentioned earlier. Make no mistake about it the penalties can be very severe if someone posts an untruthful statement.

Blaserguy,

About the F word............... not fcuking likely!!!!!

Explanation/Excuses for why things went wrong won't change what has already happened. References are what sell hunts. The feedback from the guys that went on the hunt are the ones I'm concerned with. One hunter on this trip has a terrible hunt, might be a rare case. All the hunters having simular opinions raises concern. Based on what I've read, I'd expect a substantial amount of money returned. But that's me and I know it's not likely. Some things like time and airfare can't be replaced.

Shakari,
I left Africa knowing that there was nothing that would ever get sorted out. The private discussions have already been done, nothing was resolved, and this is the announcement of the results.
As for libel, I was there and know the truth.

I would imagine if the hunt was everything it was supposed to be these men would have glowing reports that would delight the outfitter and bolster his reputation and I highly doubt people would be demanding to silence the praise.

I personally, want to hear the good, the bad and the ugly so I can make an informed decision as to whose services I might employ in the future. My .02.

Censorship might be a tactic employed by the British but it don't carry water in the good ol' U.S of A.....thank God.

I'm with blaser_guy and rmpace on this. This was a train wreck, pure and simple, and there should be a refund. It WAS kept quiet and off the internet for over a year, The outfitter and agent KNEW there were problems, and did nothing. Continued silence would only have resulted in someone else down the road having the same bad experience at a later date.

If shakari thinks this is a normal way to do business, I don't think I would want to book with him, either.

Totally uncalled for... jorge

How so???

Cricketts........<grin>

Out of this whole abortion of a thread with f*ck this and bleep that my comment about the Brits propensity for censorship is uncalled for? Not untrue but uncalled for? That's a classic. Especially considering your signature line calling somebody un-American.

No crickets, I just had other things to do on a Sunday to immediately drop everything and respond to your post. I don't agree with your censorship comment regarding the Brits. I believe all Shakari was advocating was time in order to let both sides respond as one side was out of pocket. As far as this whole apparent fiasco of a hunt, there might be two sides to every story, but in the customer service business perception is a central component to success, as is the costs incurred for a particular hunt. I am truly sorry for all concerned here as all involved seem to be decent gents.

As far as anti-American goes, if one supports the democrap platform, well, if the shoe fits...jorge

+1!

The way Tim speaks about his clients is a lot less than professional. He admidts compensation was something he would have considered before theese guys complained and then later states no one told him there was a problem. I doubt many of us believe that, however I can completly understand why a hunter under theese circumstances might not confront Tim in Africa but they are surely telling him now!
We have multiple hunters from two years telling us there were problems. We have the guy in the hot seat pointing fingers and making excuses. It wasn't hard to see where this was going from the beginning.
In the end Mark and Tim are seemingly trying to dump all the problems on another guy. The questions I see for for both Mark and Tim;
If this guy was such a flaming idiot as you state then why did you employ him? Why did you send your paying clients to an UNPROVEN camp and most importantly why would Tim continue to "hold out hope" that any information from an individual that you describe as potentially having "emotional problems" might be accurate? It just doesn't add up other than to simply say IMO Tim was grossly negligent in sending theese guys to that camp.
Mark had admitted some aspects of this hunt were unacceptable. Tim is "EXTREMELY dis-satisfied
(Putting this mildly....)"
So where is the refund? How are Mark and Tim attempting to make this right? By blaming the clients?
No doubt Shakari will now try to regale us with posts ad nauseum of F this and F that in an attempt to convince us all that excuses are more than satisfactory when a hunt goes bad.
I continue to feel poorly for the guys that got burned on this deal.

a HUGE +1 on this....

keeping my nose from going where it does not belong, but i do sympathize with all involved!

Jorge---Do you define censorship thru the lenses of your own offense?

I am amazed at times, how fast some are to condemn fellow Americans while standing up for foreigners who do the very thing they condemn in their countrymen....but if the shoe fits.

No I define censorship according to Webster's or any other accepted medium. I just don't see it here, from anybody. But if it's your goal to bait, you go right ahead, Ace. jorge

Censorship only matters when the GOVERNMENT does it. If I tell soemone to shut up, that isn't censorship.

Thanks for putting it into your own words kiddo. Carry on....