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Taurus Judge w/buckshot: Having some 1" hemlock left over from making wood duck boxes, I decided to see what the .410 buckshot would do to it at the 7 yd. combat distance. Used Winchester and Sellier & Bellot ammo.

Results: Board alone: 4 rds...groups from 3"-8"...all buckshot pellets went completely through the hemlock.

1" hemlock, with one side covered with a 3/4" thick catalog, with dry paper...taped in place and tightly compressed with a "skin" of duct tape. 2 rds., one of each brand...groups of 4" & 8"...all buckshot pellets completely penetrated the catalog and penetrated an avg. of 5/8" into the board...none went completely through the board. (Note: Recovered pellets retained all their weight, but were of vastly different shapes. One showed signs of being reformed...one side nearly flattened...by the pellet behind it in the load, as suggested on an earlier thread here.)

Question: Adequate defense loads?? I'd say yes. I can't see anyone standing up to these loads when delivered TDC. Now would this .410 buckshot be as destructive as .45's from the same gun? Hell no, but I sure do like that little bit of leeway provided by those 3"-8" groups.

Realizing that some of you may scoff at these tests, I'll tell you what my next will be anyway. (First, I must restock on .410 buckshot.) Using a human sillouette target, I want to see if I can keep two shots: a .410 buck and a follow-up .45, in the kill zone...firing the first .410 single action, with the .45 as a quick follow up double action. As something other than a polished pistolero, this may take some practice for me. Report to follow.

Im quite sure that a load of #4 or 6 .410 to an unwelcome guest would be quite effective.Ive had one of these on my list for a while..just not gotten it done yet. Looking foreward to your next test.

Ken,
I doubt 1/2 ounce of 6's at 700 fps would provide enough penetration for reliable incapacitation of a clothed and aggressive attacker. But I'm on record of not being a fan of the Judge for first line self defense use. I see utility for casual round the farm use, fishing along the river, maybe packing on the trail in places where there aren't large bears, ect. But choosing it for a first line defense handgun doesn't make sense to me personally. I certainly wish the best for anyone who does so and if it makes them happy, good enough.

That load of 6's delivered to the head/face would render mose assailants non-functional.

I have a friend that just bought one as a "truck gun". His thinking was that the size alone would offer a great deal of deterrence...

As far as rendering an assailant "non-functional" .... that might be less desirable than stone dead.... the legal aftermath of a shooting could end up worse than the initial assault.

I have a .410 TC barrel that is pretty effective out to 20 yards on small game. Wonder if the revolver could be threaded to accept that straight rifle tube that serves to keep the shot pattern together?

Can brass .410 shells be loaded on a single stage press? If so that would add some cool factor IMO.

You must be a very good shot to hit the most animated part of a human which would most likely be quickly moving in dark conditions while under the stress of self defense against a human attacker all the while firing an ungainly handgun double action. Most people are not that practiced, but good for you.

if your justified in shooting an assailant at all your justified in killing that assailant, and a couple inches of barrel length won,t accellerate a couple buckshot to the necessary velocity to do that relieably with shots to center mass,or the upper torso
Idd suggest sticking with the 45 cal slugs or better yet a 45acp-40 S&W-10mm or 357-41 mag revolver with thier more proven track records

For defense, use .45 Colt, it's a proven cartridge. The .410 in anything but slugs is a proven failure for stopping power. Don't be fooled by a board or a paper target, the .410 is not a defensive cartridge. .45 Colt is a first rate fighting cartridge and will get the job done quite handily. The .410 with the Fiocci #9 2 1/2" shell would be the cats-meow against snakes.

you know I looked at the ultra light weight version of this gun as my wife simply cannot "find" the time to practice, as she hates to shoot, and we have had a number of home invasions in our near vicinity peaking her interest slightly. I had wondered if it might be easier to hit with a 410 shell and with a few buckshot in it. I am not a big "stopping power" believer as all pistols are by neccesity low in power, but the 2.5 inch 410 shell only holds 3-5 buckshot and it won't spread out that much in the house anyway. As soon as I can I am going to get her a S&W M&P in .45ACP and put a light on it, the backstrap is adjustable for small hands, the light is well simple to use and you don't need two hands one for the flashlight and one for the pistol, just illuminate the target and pull the trigger, and a reasonable .45ACP load will not blind or deafen you like a 9mm or 40 S&W will based on my experience, please note I am not including doubletap or corebon .45's in this discussion, they are quite high pitched and very loud as opposed to a variety of simple 45 ACP hardball loads. I would get her a revolver if there were a way to mount a light on it, but the ones big enough for a light are real hog legs.

Don't know about that tube, but I am looking for some old .410 shotshells that do not have plastic shot cups. I want to find out if the gun will pattern better without the "spin" applied to the shot cup. I may simply tear apart a couple of shells and replace the shot, minus the shot cup to see how performance changes.

Believe me, the holes in the boards or the catalog/board comb. are not fooling me. They are telling me what the gun will do with buckshot. I'm quite sure, that before the winter is over, I will get a chance to try it on a piece of meat...probably a porcupine. Report to follow.

GPA - you should listen to Kevin. One inch hemlock boards ain't all that much penetration. The Pellets from that /410 buckshot load are much smaller than a .45 Colt slug and at the velocity you're working with they won't even begin to match it's penetration. The .410 is a low-pressure load to begin with and won't even do well on game such as goose and medium sized varmints. "Do well" meaning clean and quick kills.

I wouldn't trust my life to that load for anything. The .45 Judge appeals to some because it can be used for protection (.45 Colt) and for small game gathering or snake stopping (.410). One shouldn't assume that the gun will do just as well with .410 for both. It's a versatile gun with the ability to shoot various loads. Why limit it by using the wrong load for the job?

As shotshells go the .410 is in fact a HIGH pressure affair, even the 2.5". The lethality in a shotshell load comes not from a single fast pellet but multiple hits. A goose will in fact die quite handily to a .410 launched pattern if the right place is hit with the right pellets. Nominally the payload leaves the barrel a 1200 fps, just like a 12 gauge nominal load. The pellets have equal energy though the 12 has more of them.

BB or so will indeed penetrate humans and raise heck inside at house ranges and the multiple hits create a lot of damage. Don't sell a shotshell short they are wicked close in, even the .410.

That said I carry a .40.

.45 Colt loads were worthless in my .410 Contender barrel... I'm talking miss a pie plate all together at 20 feet. Hope the Judges shoots .45s better than the Contender did.

The American Rifleman did a test and included chronograph data on the loads fired from The Judge. That 1/2 ounce of shot from the .410 shotshell only managed to barely break over 700 fps from The Judge. That isn't going to penetrate much, I wouldn't have any illusions of great stopping power from such a pipsqueak load. The little buckshot loads chrono'd the same and would be a bit better than regular shot loads because of the slightly heavier weight of the pellets. But they aren't going to penetrate like a 250 gr. .45 Colt bullet at the same velocity. I just can't understand the appeal of the thing for self-defense, it does nothing well in that area.

...And that's why there are so many goose hunters using the .410? Yeah, an up-close head-shot with a .410 will kill a goose. But anything else will not do so anywhere close to reliably. Anyway, since I suck at wingshooting, goose hunting is a bad example. Medium size varmints is where I have more experience - and I won't even let someone else use a .410 with shot for that in my presence.

Idunno where you get your data, but what I've seen shows 12ga 00buck factory loads at ~ 1300fps or more. In fact, Winchester's Supreme load is reported to run 1450fps with 12 lead pellets. And that's from a shotgun barrel. Not to be critical, but just to point out that there is a difference - more than just pellet count.

Michael Bane said on his blog that Federal has developed a 410 load specifically for the Judge that is supposed to make it more effective for self defense.

And better than what? Better than the existing .410 loads? So what, it still sucks as compared to either a real handgun cartridge OR a real shotgun for self defense.

Question....For the record: What is your experience with the .410? Just how much hunting/shooting have you done with it?

In 1968 my first shotgun was a Winchester M37 Steelbuilt .410 shotgun with full choke. The gun was about as tall as I was. My first trip out as a very young hunter I killed four gray squirrels. Been using the .410 ever since in various guns for casual hunting and some skeet shooting and think I'm fairly aware of their capabilities in a shotgun. As a law enforcement firearms and tactics instructor and career cop I've shot a ton of buckshot of various types through a variety of .12 ga. shotguns and chokes. I have used the .12 ga. patrol shotgun on duty to put down various animals like dogs and deer, usually struck by cars but not incapacitated. I have also used the .12 ga. and 00 Buck to defend myself in an on duty shooting. As a devoted predator hunter I often use a .12 ga. for called coyotes and have used everything from turkey loads of no. 4's through Four Buck and 00 Buck to knock down coyotes, fox, and bobcats. I have done some research and testing of various loads and how they react to chokes and have reached certain conclusions from this experience. There is a marked difference between the effectiveness of even the .410 and the .20 gauge, not to mention the .12 bore. The .410 in a short rifled handgun barrel is a gimmick for self defense. It has utility for snakes on the trail and rats in the barn, but offers nothing worthwhile in a handgun for self defense IMHO.

Seriously, what do you see as strong points for choosing the .410 over any other reasonable handgun cartridge or a decent shotgun for a primary self defense gun? The Judge is neither fish nor fowl as it relates to a primary self defense gun and relies on hype and marketing for sales in the self defense marketplace. I am not the only person here that feels that way either. Ignoring them and the information they give doesn't make them go away. I�m willing to keep an open mind if you�d like to convince me The Judge has real merit for first line self defense. Though I suspect we both have our minds made up�