Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Muzzle loaders in Africa...Powder question

I directed you to two articles. You can read it there. The interpretation came from the man, the one guy, in Washington that has the say so.

I do not what part of Africa you hale from but you might look up some of the Creedmoor shooters in RSA. They shoot internationally and very so often host world championships. They fly around with bp cartridges regularly. And when they need more ammo than the 5 kilos they are allowed, they fly it ahead or make arrangements ahead to reload on site. But fly it they do. Check it out.

And I should add, that opinion is on paper. Read the articles.

Brent

I'll add that a quick internet search to bring me up to date, the USA now probably has the most complex and wide ranging restrictions of anywhere in the world and also has more acts and organisations that affect this sort of thing than most other countries. The USA (airlines) have to comply with (amongst others):- DOT requirements, Research and Special Programs Administration, USA PATRIOT Act, Safe Explosives Act, Aviation and Transportation Security Act, TSA security regulations, plus various executive orders plus they also have to comply with all the regulations of all the countries to which they fly to.........

Brent,

Our posts crossed so I apologise for any confusion.

Regarding your last post: Perhaps you could post the links to which you refer? - thanks in advance.

I don't come from Africa, I come from the UK but now live in Africa and have done for 8 or 9 years.

Regarding the shooting organisation you mention...... As I've repeatedly said, to the best of my knowledge flying BP on commercial passenger aircraft is illegal. Assuming I, the Senior Risk Assessor I mentioned and the links I posted are/am right and I'm pretty sure they/I am right, If they do fly with BP and they get caught, they'll go to jail for many years and if there is a serious incident, they could cause an aircraft to crash. (see my previous post about Value Jet) - For that reason alone, you might like to edit your post to remove the name of the club before the wrong person reads your comments. If you don't think forums such as these are monitored, you're very much mistaken.

If your friends fly ammo ahead, they're also probably breaking the law in that regard as well............

You will have to buy the magazine I guess. It is not a "link".

Your opinions are just that. The opinions that matter are elsewhere and that is the entire point. I'm not at all concerned about anyone reading anything. It is not a secret, and your spreading your opinions as fact are unhelpful at best.

Brent

Well I haven't seen the mags to which you refer and nor do I know what research the author(s) did to confirm their information, but I do know what personal experience I have and I do believe those links I posted are true. - However, as I've repeatedly said, I strongly advise anyone travelling with BP on a commercial airline to check with their individual airline beforehand and to get their requirements in writing to avoid any problems.

I wouldn't call offering advice/opinions and posting links that prove my point and that might keep people out of jail for long periods and would keep aircraft in the air rather than in a big hole in the ground unhelpful........ It might not agree with your opinion (which incidentally hasn't been proven by anything other than your statements) but I wouldn't call it unhelpful.

Steve, while your concerns are certainly valid, I'm pretty sure it's legal to do so. I have a couple of emails out just to confirm and I'll let you know. jorge

Brent, you're on the right side on this issue but do you have to be such a king-sized prick about it? Man, just how much lunch money did you lose as a kid Poindexter? jorge

Hi Jorge,

Thanks........... but I still reckon it would be a good idea for anyone travelling with BP to get the individual airlines rules in writing.

Certainly the airline I consulted doesn't allow it and nor does at least one other European airlines who's website I looked at.

Some more links from around the world:-

http://www.cya.gov.tw/web/english/index.asp?strurl=homec5.html

http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&articles_id=238

http://www.flyswiftair.com/BaggagePolicy.html

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1378a18e5434ad391fb76577cda24322&rgn=div6&view=text&node=32:3.1.1.4.17.7&idno=32

http://www.tdc.ca/airsecurity.htm

Hunting World in Harari...? They had some of everything you would need, stashed in secret places.

This link tells us that BP is classified as a low explosive.

http://www.firemarshal.wv.gov/Documents/EXPLOSIVES%20BLACK%20POWDER.pdf

This link tells us that explosives are not permitted on comercial passenger aircraft.

http://www.delaus.ec.europa.eu/newzealand/eu_guide/faqs_planes_prohibited_articles.htm

The posters you see plastered all over airport walls also tell you that all explosives are banned from all commercial passenger flights.

This link to the TSA tells you black powder is banned with the words 'Black powder and percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms are not permitted in carry-on or checked baggage'. (See the last listed item under firearms and ammunition)

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm

Nor can I find a single website that says BP and/or detenators are permitted on commercial passenger aircraft. I don't see how I can be wrong......... however, even if I am wrong, I'd still strongly advise anyone contemplating travelling on a commercial aircraft with BP to check that airlines regulations and get it in writing. Id also strongly urge them not to even consider trying to 'beat the rules' by loading BP into cases and trying to pass it off as ordinary ammo. Not only could it get someone into jail for a considerable time, it could cause a catastrophe. (IMHO) Anyone contemplating such a ridiculously stupid act actually deserves to go to jail for a considerable time. - Esp as BP is available once you get to many/most parts of Africa.

It might help if I give a brief personal summary of why BP is banned and ordinary ammo is not and why BP in many/most countries is more carefully controlled than ordinary powders. Take a very small pile of each type of powder and touch it off with a degree of caution (esp in the case of the BP)..... the BP (official catagory low explosive) explodes and the ordinary powder (official catagory highly flammable) burns. The relevent aircraft holds are designed to contain a fire for a period of time, but are not designed to contain an explosion. Therefore, a fire, even one with ordinary powder involved can usually/often be contained or controlled for a period of time, hopefully for long enough for the fire to either burn itself out through lack of oxygen or for the aircraft to land at their nearest alternative airport. However, BP being an explosive may well cause the integrity of the airframe to suddenly fail when it explodes causing the aircraft to lose it's flying capability...... in other words, it crashes.

Remember the Value Jet incident? - Although it wasn't caused by explosive as such, it was caused by oxygen generators producing extra oxygen, heat from the oxygen generating units as they operated and the fact that the hold also contained tyres which provided fuel for the fire. Put all 3 together and it caused a fire of such intensity that it burned through the aircraft and caused similar failures to the one mentioned above.

A lot of hunters coming out this way with their muzzle loaders organize with their Ph's to obtain blackpowder for them locally.
The problem is that the importer of BP had stopped importing, and once the present stock runs out we are left with one alternative, a locally made BP substitute called Sannadex. I suppose its similar to Pyrodex.
Thomas

Steve,
If you look into it, you cannot fly with a box of primers, a can of smokeless powder and of course, you cannot fly with a can of blackpowder.

BUT you can fly with smokeless ammo right? So maybe, just maybe, you really haven't thought this through yet.

Brent

Brent,

Ive thought it through completely.....AND I know the regulations for carriage of dangerous goods. I suggest you read my post above and the TSA link. It states quite catagorically that BP and primers are not allowed to be carried on commercial passenger aircraft under any circumstances. I've even explained why and I've also (twice) given you an example of what can happen when someone breaks the rules. I've also given you 9 or so links, including one directly from the TSA, that prove I'm right.

Smokeless powder burns, BP explodes.

If your magazine states otherwise, they're wrong and by being wrong are opening their readers up to possible criminal prosecution if they follow the magazine's advice - and possibly other far more serious consequences............

Well, Steve, on one hand I have a Federal DOT Hazzardous Materials expert and his top-of-the-heap counterpart in the FAA that have personally evaluated the regulations and determined that loaded BPCR ammo can fly and have put that in a signed letter.

On the other hand, I have you.

Not much of a contest it is?

Just grab your can of "it only burns" Reloader 15 or whatever it is you use and jump on a plane - let's see how far you get.

Brent

Brent,

I'll make two points, first of all, can you publish the letter you talk about - so far, you haven't and secondly, I'll refer you to one of my previous posts about the USA having very complicated and many different dept all of whom have their own set of rules on this. I haven't checked all the rules of all the depts, but even if FAA and DOT don't ban them, and I'd be suprised if they don't, the TSA do ban BP and all it takes is for one dept to ban something and it simply can't travel, whether the other depts like it or not. - If that isn't enough, other international laws/rules/regulations and agreements (not least amongst them, the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act) also ban the carriage of BP by commerical passenger aircraft for the reasons I mentioned above.

You don't 'on the other hand just have me' You have me and 9 links including the TSA themselves............

Here's some links to show how the Air Navigation Order/Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act works. - Similar standards etc but then adopted by the different individual countries.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/uksi_20022786_en.pdf

http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/reg/448C/s44.html

http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073468_en_30

If primers are banned... how come you can fly with them as a component of a CF rifle cartridge?

Loose BP is a no go, and sneaking it through in shot shells is foolish, but as a component of a loaded metalic cartridge its perfectly legal.

As Brent said, try and take a can of smokeless powder, bullets, primers and empty cases on a plane and see how far you get. Put them all together and no one cares.

Also explode a loaded BP metalic cartridge and a smokeless one and see which one makes the bigger 'boom'.

shakari--You are uninformed or misinformed about the regulations concerning flying with black powder. Brent has it right.

Here is the deal, and here is how I know I am right.

(1) You CANNOT fly with loose black powder, or loose smokeless powder, or primers, or percussion caps. There is one exception, that being a charter bush flight in Alaska can carry black powder to a hunting camp or supply point.

(2) You CAN fly with CARTRIDGES loaded with black powder on commercial airlines as long as you do not exceed 5 kilos of loaded ammunition by weight, and the ammunition is in approved boxes designed to carry small arms ammunition.

Loose black powder, or any other powder that is not in a cartridge is banned. However, once it is loaded into a cartridge, it becomes small arms ammunition by definition and is allowed for transport as long as the weight and packaging regulations are adhered to, the same as smokeless ammunition.

I am the factory test shooter for Goex, who manufactures black powder in the United States. I have the TSA and airline regulations, and carry them with me when I fly. So far, I have not had to produce them at check in. The Goex legal department researched this thoroughly, and I fly with my rifle and ammunition several times a year, both to South Africa and in the U.S. There is NO problem flying with loaded cartridges. Powder for a muzzleloader is another matter entirely.

I'm sorry guys, I can't agree with you. This link http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm to the site of the TSA themselves, quite plainly says 'Black powder and percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms are not permitted in carry-on or checked baggage' and goes onto say 'The regulations are strictly enforced. Violations can result in criminal prosecution and the imposition of civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation'.

And the other links I posted also quite plainly say BP is not allowed on commercial passenger aircraft.

None of those links say loose BP, they all say BP.

Nor could I find a single aviation related website that said BP is permitted on commercial passenger aircraft.

What other proof do you need for Gods sake? - Hell, I've even explained why it's dangerous to put it on an aircraft and I've consulted the senior (incidentally world wide) risk assessor of one of the biggest airlines in the world, who also confirmed it.