Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .25 WSSM article in ST

There's an article in the April Shooting Times on the .25 WSSM by David Fortier. Fortier is not one of my favorites--seems to be a pure shill for the suppliers of whatever he's testing and whatever petting zoo he's testing it on. This gun test article includes a pretty lame attempt to dramatize the execution of a whitetail from a managed herd on a plantation in Arkansas. He makes a behind the shoulder shot at 65 yards and the deer runs 100 yards before piling up dead.
Money quote: "....Winchester's new .25 WSSM had performed as intended. While he initially continued to run, he succumbed quickly to a single well-placed shot."
Talk about putting lipstick on a pig! An animal goes 100 yards after a "perfect" shot at close range, and that's the intended performance?
The ballistics quoted are nothing to get excited about either--2834 fps with a 120 grain bullet. Yawn. Back to my 257 Bob project.

Steve--

I glanced at the article while at the grocery store (can't bring myself to actually buy ST very often anymore) and had some sympathy for Fortier. Obviously he was under orders to do the piece--and just as obviously, the .257 WSSM does exactly what it's case capacity says it should: match the .257 Roberts.
The only difference is whether you want a short or "super-short" action.

Of course, one deer isn't enough field test for any cartridge. A professional culler I know says that 100 animals is more like it. I wouldn't go that far, but the fact is that most magazine staffers are generally lucky if they can field-test a new cartridge on anything before writing it up.

On the other hand, we generally know what most cartridges will do anymore, given 100+ years of smokeless powder cartridge use around the world on various game animals. Most "field tests" are therefore something to attract the reader's attention, not any earth-shaking research.

JB

Hehe...
Reminds me of the gunwriter that tested the 300 Ultra Mag when it came out. He took it to some southern state and shot a white tail doe at less than 90 yards, (measured with his laser rangefinder, of course), and she only ran a few dozen yards before expiring. From that, he deduced that the Ultra Mag was one heck of a deer killer!
I am not so sure that the fella that says that you need to kill 100 animals to really know a bullet is that far off. I have seem one load in my 270 take about 50 big game animals, and I am still getting surprised. Usually, it is a spectacular killer, even on elk, but two deer, hit at medium range with massive damage were surprises. O\The doe ran all over a big field before keeling over, and a medium mule deer buck took 3 or 4 solid hits, and just milled around until he finally fell over. I was ready to go get a chain saw and cut his legs off. The more I hunt and shoot, the less I know for sure.

Royce

Anytime that I read articles dicussing a new Remchester cartridge/rifle development I remember the Jack O'Connor piece on gunwriters testing new cartridges. To poorly paraphrase Mr. O'Connor: "Would the writer accurately report his experience, if he shot a deer with the new super dupper rifle and he could not hit the side of a barn, or if the bullet bounced off the deer and knocked his hat off"?

The idea of a short action cartridge that delivers maximum .257 Roberts loads in a light, modern rifle seems good to me, especially if the person does not reload, or prefers to use a new rifle. I think that I would have preferred a .257 WSM with higher velocities than the 25-06 but the .25 WSSM still has better ballistics for deer hunting than the standard .257 loading or the various .243s. It should be a very pleasant cartridge to shoot even in the various ultra-lightweight rifles available today. If shot well with good bullets adequate for the quarry sought, how could it not be effective for the small to medium sized game that most people shoot? Outside of some unexpected cartridge feeding or pressure problems, could anything else be the expected result of such a field test?

James.

Royce--

Yet I have read many "experts" (both on the Net and in magazines) who are sold on one particular cartridge/bullte combo because of a handful of game animals, or even one animal. Evidence even gets skewed in many of these. Several years ago a guy came to our house to fix the gas range. He saw the heads on the walls and started talking hunting. He was a big fan of the .300 Winchester Magnum and described bow it made his buddy's .270 look puny. "He shot an elk last fall that just stood there, so I shot it with the .300 and it went right down!" Upon further questioning, it turned out the buddy had made a gutshot, while the .300 bullet broke the spine. Under those circumstances I do believe a .243 in the spine would beat a .300 in the guts!

JB

We'll, I for one think usrac/browning missed the boat with the 25wssm as I wanted the WSM. Anyway, I will stick with my 257 roberts or my "bob improved" as they should be right on par with the 25 wssm and do not require a super-short action and all of the scope mounting problems (ie extension rings) that will go with that action. also, I like a little magazine capacity so I do not have to carry around a lot of cartridges in my pockets, always making noise. the roberts should allow an extra cartridge or two in the mag. with a 250 savage, 257 bob and 25-06, who needs a 25wssm? by the way, my 11 year old son shot his first, second and third deer this season with a 250 savage with rem fact 100 pspcl ammo and they all expired quickly with one shot each. I was toting a 300 wsm and looked at his little 250 cartridges with new found respect.

Fortier was trying to put some drama in a very undramatic hunting situation--by overdoing it he made it almost a parody.
I'm sure he would have liked it better if the new shortie had decked that whitetail, instead of having it take off across the countryside--would at least have made a better ad for the .25 WSSM.
It seems to me-both before and after reading the article--that the .25 WSSM is the answer to a question nobody asked. If you want a short action low intensity .25, the Roberts or its improved brethren have been here for decades. Does anybody really want to buy a new rifle to get a supershort action so they can have Bob performance?
A .25 WSM, splitting the difference between the .26-06 and .257 Weatherby while fitting in a short action, would have had some marketing punch--I'd have bought one, anyway.
I just don't see the appeal of this one--at least the other two SSMs claim to beat the competition on velocity.

FWIW:

It appears that Reminchseter should spend a little time hanging around this forum. Geez, if they'd just listen to 'Stick and build us a Model 7 in 25-284, they could actually get some sales out of the deal.

This WSSM idea illustrates to me that no one was talking with the customers, they were just listening to they own marketing buzz . . . .

Just my 2 cents . . . .

BMT

Well, I guess I must be the only guy who feels this way. But I'm looking forward to getting a 25WSSM. Yes, it's a "solution to a problem that doesn't exist". Yes, it won't do anything that some other calibers won't already do. And I already have a Bob, a Better Bob and a 25/06. But a short, handy M70 Featherweight that has the ballistics of a factory 25/06 would be something I would "have" to have. Let's hope for USRA's sake that there are a lot of guys like me! Jim

have you thought about how you will mount a scope? you will need extension rings. just something to ponder.

BMT,

No, noone at USRAC/Winchester was talking to their customers. If they did, we would be salivating over their new 25 WSM, and not yawning over the WSSM.

They bent over because of political pressure and in the end they are going to get bent over again !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Remington has to take advantage over this, it is too easy of a marketing mistake.

Tony.

257Bob: Nope, hadn't thought about that. But intuitively, wouldn't the rings be closer together, giving you more "room" to move the scope forward or back. I've had a problem at times in the past with the objective bell on some scopes starting so far back that on a M70, the scope was too far forward or an extension ring was needed. Seems like a shorter action would be a step in the right direction. Am I missing something? Thanks, Jim

No Kidding. Where is the 257 SAUM? Slap that puppy in a Model 7 with a 24 inch tube and you got a serious long range rifle that would be light enough for mountain work.

BMT

I've got the Winchester 2004 catalog and it says-

" 25 WSSM produces comparable ballistics to the long action 25-06 Rem. and 257 Roberts and easily outclasses the whitetail standout, 7mm-8 Rem."

What does that mean ? Easily outclasses the 7mm-08 ? I geuss that would be wright if the 7mm is fired in a 15" Encore barrel.

Based solely on the chronographed results in the ST article, the .25 WSSM is a shortie Roberts, but its 200 fps behind a .25-06. Not that a Roberts is to be sneered at, since it will handle about 98% of whitetail hunting, its just that we've already got it--so why all this hype to get an action that's 4/10 of an inch shorter. And on its best day the WSSM can't touch a standard .25-06, much less an improved version.

southtexas, you will have very little room to move the scope back and forth as there will be little room on either side of the adjustment turrets. From the butt of the stock to the rear of the receiver, the distance will be as typical, the receiver is shorter from there forward. your objective will be hanging out in space, unsupported. I use Talley rings and bases and will not use extension rings. I simply use another scope if the one I want to use will not fit. extension rings are fine, just not for me. I do think the 25wssm is cool but I already have that base covered and really wanted a 25wsm. I really see the best fit for a 25wssm in a ruger #1.

257Bob: I just checked a couple of my M70's and there is more than 1" between the front ring and the adjustment turret. Seems like plenty of room but I guess we won't know til we get one to look at. Thanks for the "heads up". I'll check it out before the final decision is made. Jim

this could be a good application for one of those fantastic leupold 6x42 scopes. they usually mount a bit far forward for me on a standard action but fine on a short.