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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,316 Likes: 14
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,316 Likes: 14 |
I'd like to thank John for his latest exclusive column for the Campfire, "Rifle Cartridge Overall Length." Here's a link to the entire column: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/November_2008.htmlYou can sign up to receive the exclusive column every month here: Signup for John Barsness's Exclusive Monthly Column This is the right place to ask John questions about the column. Thanks again, John!
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,671
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,671 |
It would be good if the webmaster could fix the link, but this worked for me: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/November_2008.html
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 498
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 498 |
I'm VERY happy to be receiving this newsletter for FREE as a 24hourcampfire.com member.
"The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven, not man's." Mark Twain
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
"The more I know about people, the more I like my dog." Mark Twain
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 193
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 193 |
Dear John,
What's your status w/ Wolfe Publications? I just got a "Successful Hunter" and don't see you in there as editor. Have you "moved on" ? I very much enjoy your writing. Other than 24 hour campfire, where can we find your writing? I appreciated your 358WIN/338Fed Handloading article a few months back. I went out & purchased some TAC for my Hawkeye stainless 358...
Mark Warford
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,316 Likes: 14
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,316 Likes: 14 |
Sorry guys. My bad. Son of Gael's link is where it's at.
Again, my apologies.
rb
"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 498
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 498 |
Is OAL specific to bullet type? Is OAL the same for a Nosler Partition vs Nosler Accubond vs Remington PSPCL with the bullet weight and caliber being the same? Does ogive make a difference?
Is "Step 1" fitting into the chamber, then checking for magazine fit? I'm wondering what "There's your starting OAL." means?
I'm going to look into OAL on some of my rifles after the season.
Best regards.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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New Member
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New Member
Joined: Jan 2008
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Good column. Nice to see the free newsletter as well.
Just wanted to add, my father taught me the trick of using a candle to smoke the bullet in the dummy round (no powder/primer of course) as an easy way to see the rifling. It would seem that by using steel wool you're actually making the bullet smaller, and might get a misleading measurement; going to a new bullet would then put you closer to the lands than you think.
I'm sure John has used this method himself and not found it to be an issue.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,918 Likes: 9 |
Excellent column! (But then, we expect that.) I am so glad to see OAL or COAL explained as not being some divinely-inspired number but rather a number that is dependent upon the rifle in question. Thanks John. Thanks, John
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 28 |
John's writing is good as usual.
Steel wool is better than smoking bullet--the thickness of the smudge is thicker than any that might be removed by steel wool burnish.
All of those methods are inferior to using a slip fit neck and a rod like the Stoney point tool
Just touching is never a reliable place to be....Should be .005 or more off or into rifling for robust performance.
Jim
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2008
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Is OAL specific to bullet type? Is OAL the same for a Nosler Partition vs Nosler Accubond vs Remington PSPCL with the bullet weight and caliber being the same? Does ogive make a difference?
Is "Step 1" fitting into the chamber, then checking for magazine fit? I'm wondering what "There's your starting OAL." means?
I'm going to look into OAL on some of my rifles after the season.
Best regards. The shape of the bullet will make a lot of difference in the OAL of the round. Obviously a 180 RN and a 180 spire point have very different lengths and shapes. The spire point seated the same distance off the lands will actually have the tip well out into the rifled part of the barrel while the RN will be just barely into the rifled part of the barrel. The critical dimension here is how far from the rifling is the portion of the bullet that engages the rifling first.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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These articles are going to be great!! Thanks Rick and JB.
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Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18 |
MarknMaggie, I no longer work for Wolfe Publishing, in any of their magazines. I am working steadily for several other magazines. You can find out the latest news in that direction by checking out my website, www.riflesandrecipes.com.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18 |
One thing I didn't mention in the column is that after establishing an accurate seating depth for one bullet, it's relatively easy to seat another bullet so that the ogive is the same approximate distance from the lands.
As an example I'll use a .30 caliber bullet. After establishing a good seating depth with one bullet, the same approximate ogive-to-lands distance can be obtained by setting a standard steel caliper to .304", then using this setting to inscribe a circumferential line on the seated bullet in front of the case mouth.
The distance from the case mouth to this inscribed line can then be duplicated relatively easily on bullets with slightly differening ogives. Just inscribe a circumferential .304" line around the ogive of the second bullet, then seat this bullet so that the line is the same distance from the case mouth as the line on the original bullet.
In fact, this is the method I use when testing lots of different bullets in one cartridge. It is very easy to establish the same approximate ogive-to-lands distance with several different bullets using this method.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
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JB,
Thank you for your continued support on this forum. Always enjoyed your articles, have to say I don't really like what I see in the older big two, ST, GA. Black guns are fun but not what I do. I still use your reccommended loads for the 9.3X62. My CZ has the same accuracy as yours with these loads. Don't really need this one for deer, but will take to the field this year in about a week with the Norma 232's. I am following your articles in other magazines, wolfe in my opinion has lost much of what they offered before you left. Keep up the great work.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2005
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JB,
What do you think about cartrige overall length and Weatherby freebore? Should we seat the bullet out as far as the rifle magazine will let us or seat the bullet a little deeper in the case? Right now I am loading for a 257Wby and I have found in this rifle its more accurate when the bullet is seated a little deeper in the case. (bottom of the boattail even with the bottom of the case neck) any info on the right way to set the c.o.l. in the Weatherby would help bunch! thanks rl...
Last edited by STA; 11/13/08.
randy..
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
One thing I didn't mention in the column is that after establishing an accurate seating depth for one bullet, it's relatively easy to seat another bullet so that the ogive is the same approximate distance from the lands.
As an example I'll use a .30 caliber bullet. After establishing a good seating depth with one bullet, the same approximate ogive-to-lands distance can be obtained by setting a standard steel caliper to .304", then using this setting to inscribe a circumferential line on the seated bullet in front of the case mouth.
The distance from the case mouth to this inscribed line can then be duplicated relatively easily on bullets with slightly differening ogives. Just inscribe a circumferential .304" line around the ogive of the second bullet, then seat this bullet so that the line is the same distance from the case mouth as the line on the original bullet.
In fact, this is the method I use when testing lots of different bullets in one cartridge. It is very easy to establish the same approximate ogive-to-lands distance with several different bullets using this method. How about one of these to establish ogilve lenght to the base of the bullet ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DSC00890.jpg) Even bullets that are the same, but have a different manufacture data can have different ogilve lengths ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DSC00889.jpg)
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18 |
Those work too, obviously--and yes, different bullets have different ogives.
But my method will get in the ballpark without buying an extra tools. I have too darn many handloading tools already.
If we start with a "base bullet" seated to .03 off the lands, then my method will help seat any other bullet closely enough to start shooting, without goling through a lot of gyrations.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 751
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 751 |
John what have you found to be the best way to get consistent readings with the guages like the Hornady LnL/Stoney Point or the Sinclair nut as shown in a the post above.
For example is it advisable to twirl it in the guage?
BTW I just measured a certain brand of Match grade 6.5mm bullets and the distance from base to ogive varied from 0.7300" to 0.7345"(thought match grade would be much more consistent than that). I thought the reason for the variability is my COL was due to the pointy tips contacting the stem but apparently it was the bullet. Have not shot it yet so may make no difference in accuracy.
regards,
JohnT
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,173 Likes: 18 |
Any measuring tool depends on consistency in method, plus quality of tools. A lot of calipers have some spring, hence they must be used with consistent pressure to measure accurately. So whatever you do, you must do it the SAME way every time.
There can be variations, obviously, in some bullets as well.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 54
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 54 |
Mule Deer, my "bullet nut" doesn't have a .25 caliber hole, so I tried a similar technique. I set the caliper to the bore diameter (.250"). I am curious as to why you used .304 instead of .300. Is it because the lands taper off at the throat?
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