Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles dangerous game .30 cal amax .

Sam-I'm for thinking that the concept of what Bob was saying didn't escape too many...

Dober

Ain't nobody going to place three shots into a bear in an MOA group on purpose regardless how they shoot on paper from the bench. Very, very few people would even be able to tell the difference between between a sub-MOA load and a two MOA load from actual field positions and situations. Introduce Ursas to the equation and "very, very few" will seem like a relatively large number. The vast majority of hunters would have a very hard time keeping 50% of their shots on a pie plate at 200 yards - and that's assuming a bear had one pasted on the side, which they don't. Focus on the bullet, not the paper group, and work on shooting well off the bench. There's a reason why bear guides tend to try to get their clients close to bears. The ability to shoot tiny groups from the bench is totally unrelated to that purpose.

I've never hunted any bears but what you say makes alot of sense.

If a griz hunt was in the immediate future, I'd shoot ALOT from field positions. Workup a load from the bench and then focus on hunting type shots.

thanks again for everyones input here .ive narrowed it down to 2 bullets . either the tsx or the swift a frames .

Neither me!

There are many good bullets made for game USE ONE OF THEM!!!!

8mmwapiti

I'd give the Sirrocco or Accubond's a look!

Someone from AK just recently put one of those two lengthwise through a brown bear.

Fragile bullets and potentially dangerous game do not mix well, especially when close encounters occur.

My favorite all-around bullet for the 300 mags and larger or potenially dangerous N.A. game is the 200 grain Nosler Partition. I'd also highly recommend the Swift A-Frame or the even bulkier, bonded-core 240 grain Woodleigh. I've actually used the latter on game as large as Asiatic Water Buffalo (fired from a 300 WBY Mag during a cull hunt/extremely over-populated feral herd).

As an aside in regard to the heavy-weight Woodleigh bullets; the 300 grain Woodleigh in 338 Win Mag and the 310 grain Woodleigh in 35 Whelen also performed very well during the buffalo cull. There was little (to no) difference noticed between buffs hit with these two rounds and those hit with stoutly-loaded 375s. Hence, I'd highly recommend them for use on large creatures at close range.

That was me and this is the thread:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2444153/page/2/fpart/1

Swift bullets work great on bears. A-Frames and the Scirocco II bullets penetrate and exit.

Yeppers, that's the story I read. I may have to give those Sirroccoorros a try.

Wow!That seems like a lot of penetration from the S'oII's. Did it appear that they expanded well in the bear?Certainly seems like they penetrated quite a bit.

Joe: No it's not crazy;you're a long range expert and use very specialized gear to shoot at extended ranges.Not everyone here shoots blacktail deer at 800 yards,or elk at whatever distance you shot it,which IIRC was not really all that far.Many (most?)on here do not shoot big game at those distances at which you shot the blacktail.And I doubt your 270 Allen Mag sees very much action in the timber,carried by hand,and ever gets very far from its' bipod.

It is easy to prove your point by looking at extremes of abandoning a 1/4" load for one that hits a pie plate; but I am not talking about those extremes.

Let's say a guy is going elk hunting,works up a pair of loads for his 300 WM;the NBT load groups 1/2" at 100,stays in 1.5" to 300;his other load with a Swift Aframe,say,only stays in an inch or so at 100,3-4" at 300.Don't know about you, but I am going to grab the Swift load everytime,because it has more of what I want in an elk bullet than the BT,and I know(from having done it many timeswith other BIG GAME,not target bullets)that the Swift load will hit and kill the elk out to the 500 yard mark everytime if I do my part,even though it only stays in an inch at 100 vs 1/4".At close ranges in the timber,with a fast off hand opportunity,the Swift will not turn to confetti on an elk's shoulder bone,either.Not all elk are sniped in the open at long range;in Alaska,and other places I have hunted,a guide will not let you shoot at a brown or grizzly much past the 100-150 yard mark anyway.Even on elk,from a solid position at the 300-400 yard mark(I know this is a chip shot for you)a 1" load gets the boiler room every time,and likely gets your "pie plate" to 500 or 600.

Besides,if you do any shooting at all from anything other than a bipod(which is really very,very easy to do even at extended ranges and does not take a whole lot of skill;I had my 14 year old niece throwing 10's at 300 yards the first time she ever fired a rifle of any kind),you'd discover that the minor differences between a 1/2" load,and a 1" load disappear when you go prone with tight sling,shoot from the sit, or offhand,ie field positions,where a riflemen runs squarely into the reality of his own limitations with a rifle.If a guy spends all his time shooting tiny groups from a bipod or bench he never discovers this little fact.

Flopped field prone with a consistent rifle,no bipod,no rear bag,as I would shoot over a log or pack, I pretty consistently hold groups in the 3-4" range at 300 yards,slightly larger at 400;it does not matter that the load is a 1/2" load or a 1" load.

So,I am not talking about your "extreme" example of going from great accuracy to "pie plates";I'm talking about trading off some very real advantages of a great big game bullet that will perform under a wide range of hunting conditions,vs picking some silly tin-foil thing simply because it groups fractionally better.

Clearly long range accuracy is your game and you seem to know something about it; and for that kind of shooting I can understand you wanting as much accuracy as you can get,even if it means using a super-accurate bullet of tin-foil construction on an 800 yard blacktail,on which about anything works because they are tiny creatures, easy to kill.The situation changes when you start doing general big game hunting and that super accurate thin jacketed bullet is asked to not only hit the boiler room at extended range on a frail blacktail,but also break both shoulders of an elk or moose at rock-throwing distance in the timber.But of course, you knew that.....

Besides that,obviously, if you have a choice between a Nosler Partition that shoots crummy,and a Swift that shoots great,you pick the Swift; that is pretty self evident,and easy to figure out.That is not the "choice" I'm talking about.But thanks for the advice anyhow.

Dober: Thanks for explaining where I was coming from; I think I explained it as well as I could in the somewhat lengthy post I wrote in response to Joe Cool,before I read everything else here.

OF COURSE I am not talking about accepting pie-plate accuracy;I'm taking about the guys who are going on there 1st(or 2nd or 10th)elk hunt, who run up to me at the range breathelessly showing me that the Bergers drill 3 shots into 4 tenths of an inch so they are abandoning their Nosler Partitions,or Swifts,which "only" group in an inch.That "thinking",ie mindless adherence to grouping ability as the sole criteria for a hunting bullet, over terminal performance, is a mistake IMHO. Yet I see it all the time.

And I hear "well...you can't kill them if you can't hit them...".And then their preconceived notion of the kind of opportunity they will get in the field deteriorates from a solid,machine-like rest at a broadside animal at moderate distance, in the open,to a quartering-on fleeting off hand opportunity at rock throwing distance in the oak brush, where hair splitting accuracy becomes...irrelevant.The Berger, or NBT or whatever,whacks the shoulder knuckle,splits to atoms, failing to reach vitals. The elk,unimpressed,but seriously wounded,rolls on three legs, down into some hell-hole canyon,and you have a mess on your hands.

Bullet placement AND bullet construction are the keys;they are not, in my mind seperated and you MUST have both,even if minor compromises in accuracy are required.

Apologies to Joe Cool and others I may have confused; took a long post to explain where I'm coming from.

You're kidding of course???

I sure hope it wasn't a serious question

I've used it successfully in a .17 HMR Ultra Mag on game up to and including Brontosaurus.

[quick reply was utilized. This is not a response to DennisAZ]
The reality in guided bear hunting - in Alaska anyway - is that "attempting to take" means you are punching your +/-/+$10,000 tag. If the animal runs off and is not recovered, that's the hunt - and many or most guides and outfitters are quite upfront about this. (It beats surrendering their license plus fines.) It matters not if you have a rifle that shoots hunting bullets in the sixes or if the hunter can shoot into the twos from the bench back home with a favorite rifle. Even many hunters of wide experience become quivering "pie-plate-groupers" when old Ursus gives them the evil eye. And far too many don't have enough time off their bipods, sticks, or bags or whatever to place their shot(s) well, especially under those conditions. I think you will find that most guides would rather shoot follow-ups on moving targets from 100 or less rather than 300 or more yards. Bears can and often will run after a first well-placed shot and require follow-up. (And you can't really blame a guide for wanting the bear to lie down before it crawls into the willows.)

In regard to whether one would accept "pie-plate" groups or not; does that mean that anyone who wouldn't would be willing to call off the hunt they paid thousands of dollars for it they got onto a nice animal and realized their grouping abilities and rifle skills had become one with the quaking muskeg? Just a thought...

ya of course .im actually loading up some loads in the tsx 200 grain bullet.my second question asks has any body actually used amax on wild game .such as deer. moose.etc .even black bears .how did the bullet perform .?

The A-Max is a target bullet...........can't believe this is a serious question.

MM

The exit wound at the rear ham was about 1"x2" or so. I can't recall how bad the exit wound was in the chest.

Quick Reply:

I love accuracy. I love to shoot small groups at any range.

Long before short fat was fashonable, I made a short fat seven. It is a .378 Weatherby shortened to 2 1/2" and of course necked to 7MM, it shot in the twos at 100 yards; 2" that is. But season was upon me, so I took it hunting. I ranged an elk at 400 yards. I knew if I could get a near bench steady rest, I could hold the impact very close to four inches from aiming point. I dialed in the range and held center of chest. The bullet was inside the expected group and took off the top of the heart with a 160 nosler partition. This proves if you know your tool, and have a solid rest, you have meat in the pot.

Later I worked up a load with 150 Barnes Xes that would always shoot in the twos at 300 yards. Again I mean 2". It was more fun for mind, but not necessary for the hunt.

Target bullets are becoming popular for SOME big game hunting. I know there are quite a few guys who swear by the 300 grain SMK for elk hunting. I hear it works well. A lot are also using Bergers in various denominations for deer, antelope and such.

A bear is a whole 'nuther thing. Thick, fatty bodies to get through before the vitals and on top of that, they shoot back. If I go grizzly hunting , I won't get all crazy working up some perfect load and I won't fret too much over the perfect bullet- there are so many good ones anymore that you can't go wrong. I think a 200 grain Accubond would have enough soup for a big bear if you wanted to use such a bullet for this. I've never shot one so I'm just speculating out loud here.