Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk Ammo testers going to Africa

I am starting to look for a couple of hunters going to Africa plains game hunting with .45-70 Marlins to test some of my new ammo. This load is intended for use on game up to eland (1500lbs). The ammo is completely weather proof, temperature insensitive and is pressure tested by Hodgdon. The bullet will be a controlled expantion 380 grain jfp. All of the testing should be done by the end of April. If you are interested send me a pm and I will get with you on the details. If you have already field tested some of my other loads please feel free to contact me on this one also. I will pick from the responses. Right now I think 2 hunters will be enough. This ammo will be sent completely free of charge. reflex264

You do realize that the 45-70, although one of my favorites, is illigel to use in Africa as it simply does not meet the requirements of the law. It is the equivelent of using a 22 to hunt deer here.

Stetson, perhaps you should engage your brain before typing. The 45-70 is not illegal for hunting Africa. It is probably legal in all countries for plains game, which is the application reflex264 is proposing. It is restricted from use on dangerous game in some countries.

I think you are mistaken on that. Issue #40 of Black Powder Cartridge News has an excellent story by Dick Swanson of his hunt in South Africa using his 40-70 Sharps. He shot Waterbuck, Gemsbok, Blesbok and Impala with a 425gr. bullet out of that ole Sharps. The PH was really impressed with that old gun.

Perhaps you should try to use some self restraint and tact before you let your fingers fly ! The 45-70 is NOT legal to use in Africa on DG . Period. It neither meets the MV or energy requirments of the law. You can debate it all you like but it will NOT change the law. The ONLY exception is in HIGH FENCED canned hunting concessions. I do not see at all that their is any reference to plains game. Their is no need to take any 45-70 load to Africa to test it on plains game. Any factory load that is suitable for the task will do .

You continue to display your ignorance. I never said the 45-70 was legal for dangerous game, if you read what I said. You are the one that said the 45-70 was illegal for use in Africa, period. That is patently false. It is perfectly legal to use for non-dangerous game species. I think that Tanzanian law only requires a bore size of .375" or larger for dangerous game with no mention of minimum energy.



Am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that 300 grain hollow point factory 45-70 ammo is appropriate for all plains game? I think the eland, zebra, wildebeest and gemsbok deserve better than that.

I sir do not know what ails you nor do I really care to. I failed to type in ----DG----- In my first post. You seem to have some bone to pick with me so why not act like a man and take this feud to PM ? I have no idea what this is about but I will not turn this into a flame war with some one who only wants to argue about the most trivial of errors. Call me ignorant. Yip Yap Yup what ever....Do your worst !

Hey, I see a statement I don't agree with I'm going to point it out. I'll expect the same. I apologize if I ruffled some feathers. I'll try to keep the edge a little dulled next time. OK?



Do you still think any 45-70 factory ammo is good for all African plains game? Your error in judgement is not trivial for the potentially wounded eland, zebra, wildebeest or gemsbok involved.

I have no problem with some one pointing out my errors. You might just have a field day if you follow me around fish boy. I am often guilty of a typo here and there.

Would you like to comment on the use of any 45-70 factory ammo for African plains game?

Personally I would never take a 45-70 to Africa but that's just me. No doubt it will work. Spears and other primitive weapons have sufficed for centuries so I see little to prove. I am sure you already know that cast bullets will offer better penetration. I prefer the LBT variants by Buffalo Bore as they have worked well for me in all calibers. I do not see why any one in their right mind would take experimental ammo that is unproven on a hunt. Certainly no one I hunt with would be that foolish. Ammo testing works well on ballistic gel. Of course if you like a lot of BS and publicity stunts you will no doubt be a fan or the garret ammo and vince Luppo's misadventures <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for not answering my question. I don't like a lot of BS so I guess I was right about you from the beginning.



This is not what was originally written.

Well there you have it. Perhaps you will find some one else more accomadating. I heard on tonights news that Bovine methane is destroying the atmosphere. That my ammo challenged friend is a LOT of BS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If you open your eyes you will see that I did answer your question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />





HEY, your last post is NOT what was origionally written either. In fact we have both done a LOT of edeting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Y

You certainly are not tangentially challenged.

Well indeed I am still trying to "engage my ignorant " brain <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am sure you have never ever mistepped before <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well said, you think!

Me thinks JackFish won the first 6 rounds. It had better be at least a 12 round fight to at least have a draw.

Dave

I'd just like to hear what reflex264 has to say.

I suppose old WackyJacky could get out his handy dandy dictionary and right a whole book for us like he did on the 45-70 +P strand. It still wont help the swelling in his hind end to go down. I'm afraid that its in a bit of a pucker after getting bent over to the realization that if you hunt DG with the mighty 45-70 in Africa you are little more than a poacher or a big bad canned hunter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Wow! I can see this next round is gonna be tough <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

There is plenty more to say but it is obvious you can't find the appropriate words to do so.

Yeppers!

During my 57 years I have found that when a person resorts to name calling during an argument they have already lost whether they know it or not. I have even offered an apology without backing down but the other party was so upset and not thinking straight that they missed it. Hmmmm

Post deleted by Stetson

I have know comment at this time.That is my story and I'm sticken to it.


Jayco.

I think we ought to start all over. I'm kinda interested to hear what reflex264 has to say about that new load he's got to try out.

We all know the 45-70 is much too feeble for the job. Heck, Brian Pearce only put the 400gr Corbon through 2 full sets of buffalo shoulders in one shot in the last Rifle magazine from his 45-70. That makes it barely sufficient for small plains game and whitetail deer (doe and fawns). Stetson, grow up with the name calling you are acting like a pissy little girl, you poopy head <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

280_ACKLEY

Only one post as I do not wish to join a flame session, Stetson, you obviously did not read the original post before you posted or you deliberately chose to avoid the point of the post as it specificly pointed out "hunters going to Africa plains game hunting with .45-70 Marlins to test some of my new ammo. This load is intended for use on game up to eland (1500lbs). " You made a blanket statement that if in error ignored what the ammo was for "You do realize that the 45-70, although one of my favorites, is illigel to use in Africa as it simply does not meet the requirements of the law. It is the equivelent of using a 22 to hunt deer here." The reply with the comment about engaging your brain was directly to the point " The 45-70 is not illegal for hunting Africa. It is probably legal in all countries for plains game, which is the application reflex264 is proposing. It is restricted from use on dangerous game in some countries. " Although this could have been said in many ways, it did not call you a name. You responded " Perhaps you should try to use some self restraint and tact before you let your fingers fly ! The 45-70 is NOT legal to use in Africa on DG . " Again there was never any discussion about Dangerous Game. As for name calling it seems you started that.
I hope you do think about what you said here, if you are trolling it is not needed, if not, get your panties out of a bunch and read what is posted before you complete the post.
I hope in the future you would respond to threads in a more positive manner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well their you have have it. You read it in a magazine so it must be true. I read the article as well and the thing I was left wondering at the end was exactly HOW they determined that the initial shot went through the first animal to kill the second ? When I read the article it appears to me that the author indicates he shot more than once. He ads to that he had trouble seeing the target but he knows exactly where his shots went <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> No matter what you choose to believe the 45-70 is Not legal for DG in Africa. You are either poaching or shooting on a put and take high fence operation. If you choose to idelize that sort of publicity stunt feel free. It will not change the law. Their is little to prove in that the 45-70 is capable. Not the best choice or a wise choice but capable. Just as a poacher uses a 22 to kill a deer. Do we come out with articles and high powered ammo for that purpose in a 22 ? I miss the point myself. The 45-70 is well over a hundred years old. Beefing it up to max loads, making it something it is not, and never will be, serves little purpose IMO.

"Only one post as I do not wish to join a flame session"

Perhaps you should take some of your own advice. I did in fact misread the first post. Sue me. I made a error. I corrected it only to be called ignorant, blah blah blah. I rather doubt that if using poorly placed words or misreading a post was a felony, that their would be a single member here that would not be a convict. I completely MISSED the part in the initial post about being for plains game. My error. There are those who like to berate folks when they make errors. You might consider starting a new forum on a more positive note as well. Some times taking your own advice is a tuff pill to swallow.

Stetson, Did you or did you not initially post that any 45-70 factory ammo was adequate for African plains game? If you want to continue to avoid my challenge of that statement that is fine but I don't think anyone is above accountability for what they write here. Whether or not they misread a post. Again, someone writes something I don't agree with I'm gonna respond. I expect the same, but it at least should be relevant to the discussion and respond directly to the issue. You seem to have a problem with that.

I do not know what else to tell ya. Accountability is just fine with me. That is exactly why I said I missed the part about the plains game. If you are confused by that it means I DID NOT SEE IT. In essence I am accepting responability for my error. You seem to have a problem with that.

Thanks for not answering my question, for a second time.

"I am accepting responability for my error. You seem to have a problem with that."

What I am getting at has nothing to do with your original post. I am not pursuing this due to the error you describe. I can see that you did not see the post was about plains game and you thought it was about DG. You and I agree that most African countries preclude the use of the 45-70 for dangerous game. However, in a subsequent post when I think it was clear we were talking about plains game you seemed to be saying that any 45-70 factory ammo would be adequate for all African plains game and I am just trying to find out if that is what you meant and if so why you think it is so. Is it because you erred about that too and that is why you changed your post? The edits I made only added information to my posts, not changing their meaning, while your edits changed your meaning and for some reason you also felt it necessary to delete a post. I guess I don't care anymore as explanations about what you meant don't seem forthcoming and it appears you refuse to back up what you say.



In any event I guess no one that is going on an upcoming plains game hunt is going to take reflex264 up on his offer.

The vast majority of what I edited out were unpleasantries. There was only one exception strictly for your benefit as you were so senitive and literal. I see you changed the nature of several posts of your own. I understand perfectly what you are after and I already answered your question...twice. I honestly think the only reason you would like to see that nailed down is so you can have another issue to argue about. This seems to be what you do here. Yes, I indeed did say any factory load would do. I was of course assuming that any one going on a hunt would be capable of picking a appropriate load to the task. Their are several Factory premium loads readily available. I even divulged the brand and type I prefer. If you consider that a non answer I expect you might have to deal with it as it is my final answer.

In any event I can not imagine that any one would really take ammo from a unknown maker ( to the best of my knowledge) that is unproven on a hunt costing several thousand dollars from a unknown source off the internet. For the sum benefit of a free box of ammo.

Thank you. Just remember that no one can read our assumptions if they aren't expressed. That makes this form of communication a difficult one sometimes.

Now that the ruckus is over,I think the bullet that reflex is trying should be one of the best 45-70 jacketed bullet made.A 380 grain Hawk with a .050 jacket.It has to be a killer with penetration and expantion at 45-70 velocities.Just like the new Super Jack (woodleigh)from Garrett.It's never been better for those that use the 45-70 or .450 Marlin in my opinion.Jayco.

I just read the last 2 issues of Rifle Magazine, with Brian Pearce in Africa, successfully shooting plains game and Buffalo (2) with the 45-70 Marlin. If you have not read it yet, may I recommend you do so.

It makes good reading.

Good evening gentlemen! This is quite a surprise. Mr. Stetson, I am sorry that my post alarmed you so. We all make mistakes and I hope you truly understand yours. As for expermemtal ammo I believe you missed the point of the original post. While this ammo is new it can't exactly be called experimental. That is why I spend the cash before hunters get my ammo. The experimenting is done here and at one of the best labs in the country. As for the load, it is based on existing designs that already work. Just making a few improvements to make it a better performer in our lever guns. I don't think Hawk bullets need a introduction. They have been there and done that all over the world. Andy Hill of Hawk suggested trying something a little different to improve certain aspects of the performance with current loads and designs. After lengthy stints on the phone and imput from Alaskan guides and African hunters that had already used Hawks bullets in Africa we decided on the final design and construction of the bullet. If anyhing it should outperform virtually any expanding bullet load ever loaded in 45-70 cartridges. This is my goal. As far as testing goes before any of these loaded cartridges are shipped they are abuse tested beyond any cartridges that I know of. Loaded cartridges are submersed in water for extended periods then frozen for days. The ammo is then heated to 156 degrees (F).This abused ammo is then test fired with control ammo also pulled at random. In firing this ammo together std. deviation has never exceeded 22fps. Pressure testing is done on ammo also pulled at random. Lab sheets on un-abused ammo have had std. deviations never exceeding single digits with extreme spreads never more than 25fps. In all of he testing we have never been able to cause a single mis-fire. As far as field testers are concerned I have had little trouble finding them. In field testing I have only heard from one tester that didn't get what I call satisfactory accuarcy but he also tried to work up a load with the same bullet in his gun and it just refused to shoot them to my satisfaction. I think I have a page saved by one of my testers from the old Marlin Talk. If I can find it I'll post it here. There is a very good reason for sending ammo to Africa. It is one thing to say it will do it and another to say it did do it. regards to all,reflex264

Maybe all of you guys are carry overs from MT and know each other. The thing is many of us still have no idea who you are or more important what company you represent. More info would be nice. I spend way to much money on a hunt to loose a animal to ammo. Ammo failures happen. I have had bad ammo from Weatherby and some real %^* from corbon twice. Maybee you could fill in your profile or tell us more about your goals or the products you intend to sell. In your last post you indicate that you feel "hawk" bullets need no introduction. Maybe I missed that in your origional post. In either event introductions are often helpfull in establishing new relationships. I am sure many of us would like to hear more as well as see the lab results. As you said, it is one thing to say its so and another to show it.

I'm with Stetson on posting what the name of your ammo company is. Care to share, Reflex264?

I understand your position and havn't given alot of thought to the fact that many of you may not be familier with what is going on with this ammo and for that I apologize. Most of the Marlin Talk people have been following my posts since I started rounding up field testers last year. I have been loading the 45-70 since 1977. I have harvested numerous deer with this cartridge and loaded ammo for others taking a variety of game animals. As far as my goals my wholehearted intention is to provide the best ammo possible for cartridges such as the 45-70,.450 Marlin,.444 Marlin and most hunting handgun cartridges such as .41 mag,.44 mag,.44 special, .45 Colt and .454 Casull. I have lost count of deer harvested with my loads years ago. As you mentioned problems with Weatherby and Corbon ammo I will not purposefully slam any mfgs. products but I have looked at enough factory ammo to see plenty of room for improvement. I won't mention the brand but a friend recently brought a box of 7mm08 cartridges for me to look at that he had just pruchased at Wal-Mart. Every single bullet was seated at a differant depth. I consider that unacceptable. My ammo will be Marketed under the name "ELK Valley Ammo". Right now it looks like it will go on sale in June or July. I hope to have my Web Site up in April or May. I hope it is not problem mentioning the name on this post but hopefully the ammo not being for sale yet will smooth that over. I am making changes to my loading room at this time to further control temperature and humidity during actual loading. Every single empty case is examined. every crimp,every primer after seating and every bullet is looked at. The finished cartridge is checked for seating length and every cartridge weight checked. I will not leave out a single step to increase production speed. While I have had to shuffle a few things the present opening line up for the .45-70 will be as follows:
300jhp at 1550fps (low recoil load)
300jhp at 2100fps
350jfn at 2000fps
380jfn at 2000fps
460WFN at 1700fps
550 crater at 1550fps

All of the above velocities are subject to barrel length. The lab work is done by Hodgdon and I have copies of their lab sheets that I can make availible. I hate to try to retype all of the notes on nickel brass tests that I posted on Marlin Owners but they are getting that site back up as I type and if they restore all of the posts I invite you to visit and read the results. I hope this has answered your questions about my ammo. I'll let you know when my web-site is up. regards,reflex264

here is a whitetail doe taken with the 350jfn.reflex264

here is a whitetail buck with the 300jhp.reflex264

bison killed with the 460 WFN hard cast load. reflex264

Thanx for the info. Hopefully we will see you here as a sponsor with Rick in the future. Do you have any price point on your cartridges yet and will they all be hand loads ? While I no longer buy Corbons I still buy Weatherby ammo. I expect that all manufactures that mass produce have had a bad run or two. It simply falls in the category of $%^ happens. Best of luck with your venture. Currently I shoot Buffalo Bore ammo with my 1894 Malin 44 mag. Gotta have at least one good brush buster <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Stetson. My prices will be competitive with Corbon, Buffalo bore and most other small mfgs. My loads are what I guess you would call hand loads but not like your used to. I am using Dillon equipment but I don't run the machines like you normally do when you are just reloading ammo. While I can't give away all of my tricks I can tell you that cases are not sized during the loading process. Cases that have to be sized are all done before hand. All cases that have to be sized are cleaned to be completely free of lube before they are ever loaded. There are other steps that are my little secret right now but I have I been told by the lab that my ammo is among the most consistent they have ever seen. That was my goal from the get go. Rising costs in metal products are playing havoc with my pricing. If I can get enough brass and bullets locked in I'll be alright but if not ammo costs will have to rise to meet the increases in material costs. As for as advertising I will most definantly seek sponsoring sites such as Ricks place. I really like 24 hour campfire. It is a nice site with plenty of good people.regards,reflex264

I agree, The campfire is a nice place. I hope to heat more about the 44 mag as thats what I am fiddelin with right now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey again Stetson. If your .44 has a Microgroove barrel try H4227 with the 240XTP. By far the most accurate combo I've found for my .44 Mag Marlin. If I don't change my mind a load exactly like this is going to be in the line up just for the Marlin .44 Magnums. regards,reflex264