Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Remeber all that BS about the North Pole being ice free because of global warming

Might have your wish, if the scientists, now working on cloning DNA from frozen remains, are successful.

This is more about a philosophy - naturalism - than hard science. They don't even "ask" the appropriate questions in regard to this issue. They simply declare.

This is more about a philosophy - naturalism - than hard science. They don't even "ask" the appropriate questions in regard to this issue. They simply declare.

Now that would be a draw worth putting in for.

In reading blog responses to some of those purpotedly on "our' side, I was appalled at the lack of basic science knowledge: i.e. people claiming that floating ice in the Arctic, melting, would actually lower the sea level......

Helloooo- an object floating on water displaces it's weight. - I.e. a floating ice cube going from solid to liquid will neither lower or raise the water level....

land based ice- such as Greenland or Antartica, melting, will raise the ocean level.

By all accounts, an insignificant level, practically speaking. The drastic sea level rises are predicated on ALL the land based ice melting it appears.... not likely to happen- at least in the relative short term- say 1000 years or more.

And oh, by the way - did you all see the article today that says Google is a Bad Thing? Seems all those enquiries eat up as much energy and produce as much CO2 as all the world-wide aircraft operations.

Damn that Al Gore!

Steve:

Being a science teacher living in the Arctic I have to disagree with your statement. ( PS: I am not an English teacher!) The argument surrounding global warming is on going and very engaging as it should be. It is foolish to assume that man has not had a dramatic impact to climate change. Yes green house gasses are natural and you can find them in many places from my dads dairy farm to volcanoes. The scientific question is how much has man affected the rate of greenhouse gas release especially over the past 100 years? (Industrial revolution)

Those of you who live in the lower 48 see changes in climatic norms, a bad storm or a hot summer but you can not form any conclusion from a short snap shot or from a single event. Climate change is something that is studied over 1-200 years or more so it is easy to see that we are looking at trends and making educated conclusions.


The story that you have chosen looks at a small piece of the bigger pie. This winter we are seeing some very cold and snowy conditions all over the place including up here. We have just finished a 3-week stretch of temps below �28 everyday. Damn cold but not that unusual for 33 miles north of the Arctic Circle. The real conclusion is made regarding the thinning ice pack during the summer not the winter season. We are seeing the ice pack retreating farther each summer and that is the retreat that we keep hearing about., not the advancing winter ice sheet.


Lets look at a real life example of how the retreating ice pack is affecting life in the Arctic. The North Slope Regional Corporation (Native group for the north slope region) is developing the worlds largest Anthracite Coal mine up near Point Lay. They own 12% of the worlds high grade Anthracite Coal (high BTU and very low sulfur). They are rushing to developing this mine and expect it to be on line in about 10-15 years. The only problem is how do they export the bulky coal to Pacific Rim countries? The answer is they are build a port to load barges that is currently only ice free for less than 3 months a year but they are betting the farm that the retreating ice pack will open up a larger shipping lane and allow loading for 4-5 or even 6 months per year in the next 20 years. This is one big time gamble by the largest business in the entire state of Alaska, the same folks who own the oil fields on the North Slope.

Global warming is a real issue for us boys! We see it and live it every day! Come on up and check it out for yourself. �These times they are a changing!� Bob Dylan

Walt

www.northwestalaska.com

Walt-
What grades and subjects do you teach?

Science: Physical, Earth and Bio, Reading, Social Studies and a host of "Other". Life in the bush needs "jacks of all Trades"

Thanks. Grades?

Middle School, mostly 8th. I have 22 years in total with about 1/2 in high school.

Thanks Walt.

Ironbender:
Why so curious?

Just wondering is all. I'm not sure I knew you were a teacher.

I'm with the FBI and I'm profiling you.

Cool! I own guns too, lots of them! And most of you guys thought I was a crazed Liberal. Lets go hunting!

In the 4 years I've operated boats on the Beaufort Sea, there's been a dramatic and noticeable decrease in the amount of sea ice seen during the summer.

Just an observation, make of it what you will...

"It is foolish to ASSUME that man has not had a dramatic impact to climate change."

And that indeed is what it is at heart, an assumption. Is the climate changing? Well what time frame are you measuring? We do not know enough for LONG enough to assume anything. This ASSUMPTION is driven by ideology, not science. I have no idea what is going on with the long term climate, but neither do "they".

No it is not ideology but the collection of data and the observation of patterns and trends. Science is a process that has a set of rules and peer review. The peer review is the key and that is what keeps the ideology and politics out of real science. This is what gave the Bush administration fist. That pesky science that was peered reviewed did not give them the data that they wanted so they manufactured their own without the peer review!

To study climate change one has to collect data for a long time and the story will be told way after the damage has been done. Its like your car stopped on a train track and you see a train is coming down the track. We can study the speed and velocity and heck the acceleration of the coming train but a astute young man just might be able to make a reasonable prediction that the train has a very high chance of crashing into my car sooooo maybe I should change tactics and move my car maybe 20 feet forward and thus avoid the pending train wreck or I could stand in the middle of track and debate what kind of train it might be and deal with the consequences after the so called train arrives???

What do you think Curldog?

That's local, not global.

And what do you do when the "data" is faulty or has been manipulated?

Waxman promises quick action on climate
Jan 15 12:44 PM US/Eastern
By H. JOSEF HEBERT
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The chairman of a key House committee said Thursday he will move "quickly and decisively" to push legislation curbing greenhouse gases with a goal of passing climate legislation out of his committee before Memorial Day.

Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., opening the new Congress' first hearing on the threats from global warming, said inaction on the climate issue is causing uncertainties that make it more difficult to emerge from the recession.

"Our environment and our economy depend on congressional action to confront the threat of climate change and secure our energy independence," said Waxman. "U.S. industries want to invest in a clean energy future, but uncertainties about whether, when and how greenhouse gas emissions will be reduced is deterring these vital investments."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., another strong proponent of moving climate legislation, has given no indication how quickly House action might come.

But given the broad impact that regulating greenhouse gases, especially carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels, would have, it is widely viewed that any legislation will require substantial bipartisan support, especially in the Senate.

To dramatize the business community's growing consensus that the climate issue must be confronted, Waxman invited to the first hearing 14 corporate executives and environmental leaders who have pressed for an 80 percent reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050.

The 14 executives and environmentalists sat shoulder to shoulder across at a witness table spanning two-thirds of the Energy and Commerce Committee hearing room.

Dealing with climate change "will not be cheap and not be easy," warned James Rogers, chairman of Duke Energy Corp. But he said coupling a short term stimulus package with a long-term climate plan, "we have the ability to stimulate greater confidence ...(and) put the recession in the rear view mirror."

Earlier the group, the 31-member United States Climate Action Partnership, outlined its blueprint for limiting greenhouse gases, calling for an 80 percent emission reduction by mid-century with half of that coming by 2030. It calls for a ramp up of 20 percent reduction as within a dozen years. Carbon dioxide emissions have been increasing about 1 percent a year since 1990.

The group endorsed a cap-and-trade system where greenhouse gas emissions would be limited, but pollution allowances would be provided by the government, especially for carbon intensive industries such as utilities with coal burning power plants. And it would provide incentives for coal plants that capture carbon dioxide.

The business group's plan does not go as far as what President-elect Barack Obama has proposed, nor one that Waxman has floated. Obama has called for an 80 percent reduction in emissions by 2050 from 1990 levels, meaning greater reductions would have to be made.

Obama also has opposed giving industry free emission allowances, saying that 100 percent should be auction and the proceeds used to promote clean energy, energy efficiency and carbon capture from power plants. The coalitions plan would phase in auctions.

But the proposal outlined by the business and environmental leaders is expected to be a starting point.

"This is the model to solve the problem," Rep. Jane Harmon, D-Calif., told the group.

Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass., who chairs the subcommittee that will write the initial legislation and chairs a separate committee on climate, said a consensus for mandatory emissions reductions is clear.

"Now the hard task of enacting global warming legislation is before us," said Markey.

That point was demonstrated by Texas Rep. Joe Barton, the committee's top Republican, who said the cap-and-trade plan threatens jobs. And he recounted how each of the companies represented by the witnesses had recently suffered dramatic declines in the value of their stock.

"You cannot tell me if we adopt mandatory cap-and-trade it's going to help your stock prices," said Barton.

Among the executives were the chairmen of ConocoPhillips, General Electric, DuPont and electric utilities Exelon, NRG Energy Inc. and Duke Energy. Environmental groups included Environmental Defense Fund, Natural Resources Defense Council, Nature Conservancy and World Resources Institute.